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Son wants to go to a chiloni school (israel)
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amother




Sienna


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 9:53 am
We are going through this, but we are not new olim, dd 15 was born here. She is currently at a dati leumi ulpana boarding school, but was incredibly miserable.
we got her into a pluralistic school. this goes against every fibre of my being. it was not a decision made lightly.
we are strict modern, but she does not wear modest at all. I think she wears jeans. she has a boyfriend. I feel like this generation cannot handle being told what to do. my dd is very sweet. but I think keeping her in that school was making her depressed, with all the rules. I asked my mashpia what to do. she told me that this generation is very sensitive and more important that they are happy and not to force her to keep mitzvot. others may disagree or have a different approach. her health has been affected. and her grades.
another person with a similar question asked her and they went to a big breslov rabbi (he is very charif). he said most important that the child is happy.

I hope you find an answer you are looking for.
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amother




Brunette


Post  Fri, Jun 22 2018, 10:53 am
I'm not posting as a mom of a teen, but my own experiences as a teen in the position your son is in.

My mother was very inflexible when it came to any of us children wanting to change anything that didn't agree with her very frum outlook of the world. She spent years of our lives fighting us and not allowing us to change anything.

And for what? We all grew up and chose our own paths anyway. Some of my siblings aren't frum, some are very very modern. Only 3 (out of 12!!) remained as frum and strict as my mother.

You may not want to hear this, but being religious may not be for everyone. As much as it pains you, you have to let your son choose his own path. Fighting him will waste years of your lives when you could have a beautiful relationship with your child.

It took my mother YEARS to rebuild her relationship with her children. Even after we were married she would let us all know how much she disapproves, and how hurt she is that we rejected her way of life. In my case, she wasted 10 years fighting with me, trying to keep me as religious as she is, when she could have had a normal mother-daughter relationship. I grew up, left the house the day I was able to, and found my own path anyway.

My oldest did start off his school years in a yeshiva. When he reached mid-elementary grades he was very unhappy, had to be bribed to go to school, and spent more time playing hooky than going to school. We switched him to a much more modern school. He's been insisting on only applying to modern, coed high schools. Honestly, what will I gain from refusing and forcing him to go to a yeshiva high school??

OP, would you rather have a relationship with your son, or would you rather spend the next 10 years fighting a losing battle?
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amother




Slateblue


Post  Sat, Jun 23 2018, 7:57 pm
I think approaching this situation from the perspective that you have a choice between 'a relationship with your son or fighting a losing battle' is giving up hope. No matter how much your son says he doesn't want to be frum and no matter how many times he tells you to let him do what he wants- he doesn't mean it deep in his Yiddishe neshoma. As long as you and your husband don't give up on this boy, neither will he. If you believe in him and accept him, he will believe in himself. As long as you and your husband treat him like a yeshivah bocher- that's who he will see himself as, deep inside. We can't help being who others treat us as, even if it takes time to get there!

If a child was raised Haredi and decides to 'go off,' something went wrong somewhere along the line, and he will have to work through that when he's ready. But for the time being- don't let this outer facade of 'I'm chiloni now' fool you. People don't willingly leave their environment- they are pushed put by some external factor. I don't know your son, but I believe he, deep down in his Yiddishe neshoma, wants connection to Hashem and wants to be part of Yiddishkeit. But right now for the time being perhaps he just isn't at that place... However you and your husband as his parents can't give up. And your other children can't see you give up on him either. You have to be his biggest fans, his biggest support and his biggest believers, telling him that he is kodesh, that he is so important to Hashem and that he can't put himself in an environment and around people who aren't good for him.

He is 16, so he must have 2 years of school left, correct? There are so many yeshivas for olim, yeshivahs that will give him a career and Torah education, warm and loving environments for young men who are 'figuring it out,' and etc. There IS a warm, supportive and kodeshe place for your son! And it's not the chiloni school. Maybe the organization Yedidim or Chaim v Chessed can direct you towards professional resources that can help you during this time.

If it were me, I would spend as much extra time with this boy as possible, talking to him about everything that interests him. I would shower him with acceptance, while not allowing him to put himself in a bad environment (chiloni school). I would tell him that he's too important to me, too important to the family, too important to Hashem.

I would also spend some time away from your current environment this summer, if possible. Maybe a trip back to the UK or visiting another place in Eretz Yisroel for example.

I will be davening for son and family. Please know that as his mother, your love and acceptance can make a greater nes than anything. Nobody will ever be as influential to this boy as you!
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amother




Ivory


Post  Sun, Jun 24 2018, 6:47 am
amother wrote:
I think approaching this situation from the perspective that you have a choice between 'a relationship with your son or fighting a losing battle' is giving up hope. No matter how much your son says he doesn't want to be frum and no matter how many times he tells you to let him do what he wants- he doesn't mean it deep in his Yiddishe neshoma. As long as you and your husband don't give up on this boy, neither will he. If you believe in him and accept him, he will believe in himself. As long as you and your husband treat him like a yeshivah bocher- that's who he will see himself as, deep inside. We can't help being who others treat us as, even if it takes time to get there!

If a child was raised Haredi and decides to 'go off,' something went wrong somewhere along the line, and he will have to work through that when he's ready. But for the time being- don't let this outer facade of 'I'm chiloni now' fool you. People don't willingly leave their environment- they are pushed put by some external factor. I don't know your son, but I believe he, deep down in his Yiddishe neshoma, wants connection to Hashem and wants to be part of Yiddishkeit. But right now for the time being perhaps he just isn't at that place... However you and your husband as his parents can't give up. And your other children can't see you give up on him either. You have to be his biggest fans, his biggest support and his biggest believers, telling him that he is kodesh, that he is so important to Hashem and that he can't put himself in an environment and around people who aren't good for him.

He is 16, so he must have 2 years of school left, correct? There are so many yeshivas for olim, yeshivahs that will give him a career and Torah education, warm and loving environments for young men who are 'figuring it out,' and etc. There IS a warm, supportive and kodeshe place for your son! And it's not the chiloni school. Maybe the organization Yedidim or Chaim v Chessed can direct you towards professional resources that can help you during this time.

If it were me, I would spend as much extra time with this boy as possible, talking to him about everything that interests him. I would shower him with acceptance, while not allowing him to put himself in a bad environment (chiloni school). I would tell him that he's too important to me, too important to the family, too important to Hashem.

I would also spend some time away from your current environment this summer, if possible. Maybe a trip back to the UK or visiting another place in Eretz Yisroel for example.

I will be davening for son and family. Please know that as his mother, your love and acceptance can make a greater nes than anything. Nobody will ever be as influential to this boy as you!



You sound so sheltered. I don't want to hurt your feelings.. I just disagree with everything you said.
If that were true... What about BT? Most of their parents are extremely upset about them becoming frum. Some cut ties with their kids completely. They've told their kids their whole lives that they see them as XYZ and apparently people have the free will and choose what they want. Which is a great thing by the way. Parents can show their kids a certain lifestyle. But kids are their own beings and everyone has different needs etc. Being frum isn't for everyone. You can see and treat someone as a yeshiva bochur and maybe he just wants to have fun and that's what he will do.
I've heard a lot of people say the things you said.. yet I haven't seen it work most of the time.
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LovesHashem









  


Post  Sun, Jun 24 2018, 7:39 am
amother wrote:
Being frum isn't for everyone.


No, you cannot force anyone to be frum, and you cannot mold people or change people to fit into your ideals.

Haven't fully read the thread, and it's a very sticky topic, but even in context I do not understand the idea of not being cut out for being frum.

Do you think God should of made him a [gentile]?
Being frum is possible for every single Jew, it's what God wants from every single one of us.
Whether you personally do that or see that is another story, you have free will.
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shabbatiscoming









  


Post  Sun, Jun 24 2018, 8:54 am
LovesHashem wrote:
No, you cannot force anyone to be frum, and you cannot mold people or change people to fit into your ideals.

Haven't fully read the thread, and it's a very sticky topic, but even in context I do not understand the idea of not being cut out for being frum.

Do you think God should of made him a [gentile]?
Being frum is possible for every single Jew, it's what God wants from every single one of us.
Whether you personally do that or see that is another story, you have free will.
I dont think you even read OP's first post by your reply here.
First of all, being not jewish and being not frum are completely different.
And yes, not being frum is for some people, dont discredit such people.
And how are you so sure that hashem really wants us ALL to be frum?
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shabbatiscoming









  


Post  Sun, Jun 24 2018, 8:57 am
amother wrote:
I think approaching this situation from the perspective that you have a choice between 'a relationship with your son or fighting a losing battle' is giving up hope. No matter how much your son says he doesn't want to be frum and no matter how many times he tells you to let him do what he wants- he doesn't mean it deep in his Yiddishe neshoma. As long as you and your husband don't give up on this boy, neither will he. If you believe in him and accept him, he will believe in himself. As long as you and your husband treat him like a yeshivah bocher- that's who he will see himself as, deep inside. We can't help being who others treat us as, even if it takes time to get there!
I think your view is EXTREMELY naive. No, not everyone wants to be the same religious level that they were when growing up, trust me. There truly are people out there that want to become other levels of frumkeit or none at all. Why is that so difficult to believe.
And if you believe that a kid who says he wants to be secular really deep down want to be charedi, I have a bridge Id like to sell you.
If the parents keep treating him as a yeshiva bochur, that he is NOT anymore, it will drive him farther and farther away, trust me.
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LovesHashem









  


Post  Sun, Jun 24 2018, 9:03 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
I dont think you even read OP's first post by your reply here.
First of all, being not jewish and being not frum are completely different.
And yes, not being frum is for some people, dont discredit such people.
And how are you so sure that hashem really wants us ALL to be frum?


Was not responding to OP, was responding to amother Ivorry.
Hashem wrote the Torah 2000 years before he created the world, it is the blueprint for the wold and when Moshiach comes we will all keep it fully, and the gentiles will keep their mitzvot too. The Torah gives us the best possible life, and Hashem wants us to have the best possible life.

It's pretty clear to me that he wants us all to keep the Torah.
He wants only good for all of us and that is the ultimate good.

That being said there's many different variations of how to practically go about that, and living the Torah life is a lifestyle, and it's not going from 0 to 100 in a day, nor will a human being reach 100, it's about getting there, and working towards this.

But again, we all have free will, and if someone wants to live another life, than go ahead. I feel bad that they don't appreciate the full sweetness of the Torah. And I know you will say they can not be frum and still appreciate the Torah, and it's true. But the Torah isn't just a book that's meant to be read, it's fully appreciated when it's being lived.

Don't want to overshadow OP, so if you want to take this further we can PM or open up a spinoff thread.
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ora_43









  


Post  Sun, Jun 24 2018, 9:42 am
Most posters seem to be relating to this as a religious-secular issue. Which it obviously is, to some extent. But it's also a 5 schools in 4 years issue.

I haven't been in that situation. But I don't think I'd let a child, even a teenager, choose a 6th school in 4 years. At least not without meeting some preconditions. What makes him think switch #5 is going to be the solution? With no connection to whether potential School #6 is secular, hareidi, or anything in between.

This isn't a "may as well try" situation; each school switch is an academic setback.

Not that I recommend a flat "no," either. More like, "you can switch if":

- he sees a counselor. Not necessarily a psychologist. But someone who can help him figure out what it is that he finds frustrating/difficult about learning (doesn't fit in socially? undiagnosed learning disability? The fact that he had issues with five schools suggests he has issues with school, period - figure out what those are). And what it is he wants in the future.

- he researches schools on his own. Because this is switch #5, "my friends seem to like it" isn't enough. He should look at multiple school options, and present an educated argument in favor of the one he likes most.

- summer classes. Since he hasn't been doing well in school for 4 years, and started in a different school system, he'll have some catching up to do. If he really thinks he'll take school #6 more seriously than the others, he can prove that by taking learning seriously starting now.

The above are just my suggestions, there are certainly other possible conditions (summer job, certain GPA, etc). I would definitely insist on the counselor, though. And/or a full learning diagnosis (ie ivchun psychodidacti).

FTR I think it might be best to focus on this aspect of the situation when talking to him. IE, not "Shmuly, if you want to go a secular school, here's what you have to do," but more, "Shmuly, I understand that you want to go to School X next year. I'm glad you told me that. But honey, while I'd love to see you in a school that you enjoy, this is the fifth time you're asking to switch schools. I'm not saying 'no' to a sixth school, but if we're doing another switch, I want all of us to invest some serious effort in making sure this is the last switch. For example, by (conditions)."
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ora_43









  


Post  Sun, Jun 24 2018, 10:14 am
How was he with school in the UK?

How's your relationship with him in general? It sounds like not so great now. Did it used to be good? Is the feeling that he tries to manipulate you new?
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etky









  


Post  Sun, Jun 24 2018, 10:40 am
LovesHashem wrote:
No, you cannot force anyone to be frum, and you cannot mold people or change people to fit into your ideals.

Haven't fully read the thread, and it's a very sticky topic, but even in context I do not understand the idea of not being cut out for being frum.

Do you think God should of made him a [gentile]?
Being frum is possible for every single Jew, it's what God wants from every single one of us.
Whether you personally do that or see that is another story, you have free will.


Neither do I.
I believe that there are many paths to avodat hashem that a person can explore until he finds the one that is right for him.
I also believe that a parent cannot force a child to be observant, much as we might like to.
However, hashkafically, I believe that every Jew is meant to keep the mitzvot and if they have lapsed in their observance or lost their faith, we have to hope and pray in our hearts that they will find a path back, even as we still accept and love them as they are now.
Hashem didn't create the Torah only for those who are temperamentally inclined to keep it.
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amother




Ruby


Post  Sun, Jun 24 2018, 10:42 am
Definitely do not send him to a chiloni school...I have a friend who works for the public school system in Israel and she said it is horrendous, the chutzpah, the promiscuity, etc.
There are plenty of programs/organizations that help these kinds of teens - I don't know names of the programs but I do know families who send to schools/programs for "less frum" or no-longer-frum teens. Perhaps contact Hidabroot or Hakshiva for more info.
Sending you hugs and wishing you much hatzlacha
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sped









  


Post  Sun, Jun 24 2018, 1:59 pm
etky wrote:
Neither do I.
I believe that there are many paths to avodat hashem that a person can explore until he finds the one that is right for him.
I also believe that a parent cannot force a child to be observant, much as we might like to.
However, hashkafically, I believe that every Jew is meant to keep the mitzvot and if they have lapsed in their observance or lost their faith, we have to hope and pray in our hearts that they will find a path back, even as we still accept and love them as they are now.
Hashem didn't create the Torah only for those who are temperamentally inclined to keep it.

You wrote this whole post really well. The last line is especially strong.
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amother




Floralwhite


Post  Sun, Jun 24 2018, 2:23 pm
shabbatiscoming wrote:

And how are you so sure that hashem really wants us ALL to be frum?


Huh? Scratching Head
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amother




Seagreen


Post  Sun, Jun 24 2018, 2:29 pm
amother wrote:

If that were true... What about BT?


Going up and going down are two different things.

Going down is the pull of this world.

Going up is the pull of the neshama.

And that neshama doesn't disappear when someone is pulled by the trappings of this world. It will always be there, rooting for the victories of a Yid.

Jews doing mitzvos is natural; going the opposite direction is not.

You can't compare the two.
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amother




White


Post  Sun, Jun 24 2018, 2:57 pm
Is your son fluent in Hebrew?
You might want to check out YTA in yerushalayim. The classes are all in English and it's an all boys school.
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salt









  


Post  Mon, Jun 25 2018, 5:23 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
I dont think you even read OP's first post by your reply here.
First of all, being not jewish and being not frum are completely different.
And yes, not being frum is for some people, dont discredit such people.
And how are you so sure that hashem really wants us ALL to be frum?


Keeping mitzvoth is definitely hard for some people, are these people should not be discredited.
If the Torah tells us to keep mitzvot, then a Jew who believes that the Torah was given by G-d, can be fairly sure that the Almightly wants us to keep them.

eg.
ושמרתם את חקתי ואת משפטי אשר יעשה אתם האדם וחי בהם אני השם

That is our faith.
If you are asking, "how are you sure that this boy in OPs thread should be going to a yeshiva right now?" Then the answer is probably "no, can't be sure".
But if you are asking, how can you be so sure that Jews should keep the Torah, well, just read the Torah, Talmud, etc, no?

What do you mean?
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amother




Periwinkle


Post  Mon, Jun 25 2018, 5:41 am
Some of the posts here are beyond me. If you're frum you firmly believe that this is the best (or arguably the only) way of life down here as well as for eternity. How can a parent not wish this for their child?
To me it seems rather shallow to value your own relationship with your child over his ultimate good. Parenting is about taking yourself out the picture completely and honestly acting in the child's best interests. Always.
Of course that doesn't mean forcing or some other questionable means of persuasion. It ain't gonna work with human beings. But when the heart and mind is in the right place, the right actions will follow.
And guess what, when kids sense that their parents care about them more than anything else, the relationship that develops is deeper and better than ever.
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shabbatiscoming









  


Post  Mon, Jun 25 2018, 7:09 am
salt wrote:
Keeping mitzvoth is definitely hard for some people, are these people should not be discredited.
If the Torah tells us to keep mitzvot, then a Jew who believes that the Torah was given by G-d, can be fairly sure that the Almightly wants us to keep them.

eg.
ושמרתם את חקתי ואת משפטי אשר יעשה אתם האדם וחי בהם אני השם

That is our faith.
If you are asking, "how are you sure that this boy in OPs thread should be going to a yeshiva right now?" Then the answer is probably "no, can't be sure".
But if you are asking, how can you be so sure that Jews should keep the Torah, well, just read the Torah, Talmud, etc, no?

What do you mean?
I think, for myself, the best way to live is to be frum, but I most certainly do not think that it is THE best way for everyone to live. I really feel that for some people out there being frum is not the correct way for them to live. Why is that so hard to understand. Just like not every frum person lives the way I do and just like I dont live like the chasid next door, I dont think every Jewish person was meant to be frum. I really dont.
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salt









  


Post  Mon, Jun 25 2018, 7:27 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
I think, for myself, the best way to live is to be frum, but I most certainly do not think that it is THE best way for everyone to live. I really feel that for some people out there being frum is not the correct way for them to live. Why is that so hard to understand. Just like not every frum person lives the way I do and just like I dont live like the chasid next door, I dont think every Jewish person was meant to be frum. I really dont.


I understand completely what you're saying, I just don't agree.
Fair enough.

Adding - I do agree with you that every single Jew should be accepted, and their views should be heard, and that they shouldn't be judged, etc.
And I believe that for people who do not want to continue keeping certain mitzvoth, there isn't much good in forcing them however one may want to do that.
But, to say that Hashem's wish, whatever that may mean, is that certain Jewish individuals ought to be living their whole lives never keeping Shabbat for example, because that is how they see best to live their lives, I do not agree with.
But as I said, I think I do understand that that is what you're saying.


Last edited by salt on Mon, Jun 25 2018, 7:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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