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amother




Mustard


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 10:34 am
Not everything is because of background. My friends 5 year old still has no school for next year in Lkwd.

They have tons of yichus and father is still learning. The schools are simply too full. By the time siblings, teachers kids and relatives of administration are accepted there were less than 10 slots in each school she tried.
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rainbow dash









  


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 10:50 am
Someone has to collect all these stories from everyone they know that this has happened to and get it published as an article in the binah, mishpaha and ami and Al the other magazines. Maybe then something will happen. Highly doubt it but this elitism has to stop.
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InnerMe









  


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 11:28 am
thunderstorm wrote:
I had OPs experience after applying to six different types of schools. Unfortunately it's the reality.
My DHs sister moved to our town. Her daughters were not accepted into ANY school not Chasidish, Litvish, or modern. Only once they were home for an entire year did one of the modern schools accept them. At that point their self esteem was down in the dumps. These girls were destroyed, the whole neighborhood knew these new people on the block didn't go to school because nobody accepted them. One girl was supposed to start highschool, preschool, and third and sixth grade.
By the time the girls were given a school the oldest was very upset and refused to go. She went OTD. The others eventually followed suit. When my SIL saw that the schools in this city were just not going to budge and accept her kids she was ready to move back but her kids were too embarrassed to go back and face their old community after having major goodbye parties with their old school and friends.
There were multiple askanim that worked on trying to get them into school but it took over a year and a year too late.


This sounds awful. Hugs to you and your sil.

I think it's terrible that wonderful people like you and sil, who have overcome more obstacles than people with "regular" backgrounds to keep strong in yiddishkeit, are being shunned this way. I am sad for your Sil and others that should never have experienced this.

I appreciate you being open, and courageous in writing this.


Last edited by InnerMe on Wed, Jun 13 2018, 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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thunderstorm









  


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 11:34 am
InnerMe wrote:
This sounds awful. Hugs to you and your sil.

I think it's terrible that wonderful people like you and dh, who have overcome more obstacles than people with "regular" backgrounds to keep strong in yiddishkeit, are being shunned this way. I am sad for your Sil and others that should never have experienced this.

I appreciate you being open, and courageous in writing this.


If only what I say gets heard and ends up as a help to others. It's not easy sharing a lot of this stuff but I really feel people need to be made aware of the reality.
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Chayalle









  


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 11:49 am
amother wrote:
Not everything is because of background. My friends 5 year old still has no school for next year in Lkwd.

They have tons of yichus and father is still learning. The schools are simply too full. By the time siblings, teachers kids and relatives of administration are accepted there were less than 10 slots in each school she tried.


I agree that this is generally the case in Lakewood - it's supply vs. demand. I remember when my cousin's child didn't get into school - they are literally as yeshivish as they come, and from really nice, well-know families - but it was just a packed year...they ended up sending to a new school that had just opened, and by now they have 3 kids in that school and are really happy there.

At least in Lakewood, they are constantly opening new schools to meet the demand for students. Parents who are willing to give new schools a try usually won't end up having their kids sitting home all year. Though this may not be the case for boys - I hear that new schools are not opening for boys at the rate needed. It's horrible to hear that kids literally don't have a slot in our schools.

It's much worse when we are talking about older kids who are not in school. My sister's SIL moved to a new community (to be near her family, including a sister who was shouldering the burden of caring for their mother, who is not well) and her 10 year old sat home for half of the year, not accepted to any school. It's unconscionable.

I think our communities need to have a vaad that determines the number of slots needed, and ensures that available schools/classes open up as the demand increases. I think this should be at the forefront of all Asifos, right up there with internet and tznius - if kids aren't in school, how can we expect them to follow our Rabbanim in all other areas? This has to become a priority, quickly.
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Laiya









  


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 11:56 am
thunderstorm wrote:
Between my own and family members experience this happened between more than 10 schools. Some ae run privately some under rabbanim and some under mosdos. They all provided the same treatment.
When we went to our Rav , a well respected Rav in the community, he told us unfortunately the schools have an attitude where they don't listen to the rabbanim. The only people that have a "say" are some askanim, which are usually people with money and are movers and shakers. It's a sad situation and what bothers me the most is that so, so many people cover their eyes to see the truth and are in denial of what is really going on here.
Baruch HaShem my kids are all in schools , but it did mean I had to send one of my kids to a playgroup for a third year because it took me two years of interviews and rejections until one of the businessmen in the board got us in to one of the schools.
We went through this with every preschool registration AND highschool/ Mesivta , with each child. I know I'm not the only one that had to experience this. There are way too many similar stories.


That's so crazy, I don't know what to say, but it's really wrong.

It sounds like a big part of the problem, like Chayalle said is supply and demand, so when they have to start limiting, they look for stupidities. I'm still trying to wrap my head around ten schools all doing this.
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LovesHashem









  


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 12:00 pm
rainbow dash wrote:
Someone has to collect all these stories from everyone they know that this has happened to and get it published as an article in the binah, mishpaha and ami and Al the other magazines. Maybe then something will happen. Highly doubt it but this elitism has to stop.


Hamodia did a series about it 6-12 months ago.
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amother




Olive


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 12:05 pm
Chayalle wrote:
I agree that this is generally the case in Lakewood - it's supply vs. demand. I remember when my cousin's child didn't get into school - they are literally as yeshivish as they come, and from really nice, well-know families - but it was just a packed year...they ended up sending to a new school that had just opened, and by now they have 3 kids in that school and are really happy there.


It's partially supply and demand, but that limited "supply" means that schools do get very nitpicky and obnoxious while trying to fill those slots. I was personally subjected to some unbelievably stupid comments while trying to get my daughter into school.
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amother




Jade


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 12:05 pm
thunderstorm wrote:
When we went to our Rav , a well respected Rav in the community, he told us unfortunately the schools have an attitude where they don't listen to the rabbanim. The only people that have a "say" are some askanim, which are usually people with money and are movers and shakers. It's a sad situation and what bothers me the most is that so, so many people cover their eyes to see the truth and are in denial of what is really going on here.


This is the problem. We had a situation where a well-known and respected Rebbe provided us a recommendation letter to a school, requesting they give us admissions preference. The school told us they aren't even interested reading the letter, though that Rebbe highly recommends the school to his kehilla! Another school said, in so many words, that they don't take orders from our or any other Rebbe/Rov; they have their own Rabbonim, supposedly, who make the rules. This attitude is disgraceful. In actuality it's the parents of other children in these schools who call and complain that So-and-so got accepted into the school and they don't want their children studying with those of working fathers, baali teshuvahs, and etc. Rabbonim are for the most part powerless to do much in the way of helping a child to gain acceptance to a school, unless the school is directly under their control.
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InnerMe









  


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 12:13 pm
thunderstorm wrote:
If only what I say gets heard and ends up as a help to others. It's not easy sharing a lot of this stuff but I really feel people need to be made aware of the reality.


I'm sure it is.
That's why I applaud you for speaking up.
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amother




Cyan


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 3:46 pm
As I had experience with having to call up the principal of a school many times to try to get my children in, the way I look at it is that the schools claim they are teaching good middos , proper way to serve hashem etc. But, in reality, the leaders of the school who make the decisions are not displaying good middos by not caring about these kids with no schools. I'm specifically talking about schools that have space and reject ppl BC of background (BC other parents complain) or BC of another silly reason .....
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rgr









  


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 4:36 pm
amother wrote:
It's partially supply and demand, but that limited "supply" means that schools do get very nitpicky and obnoxious while trying to fill those slots. I was personally subjected to some unbelievably stupid comments while trying to get my daughter into school.


My sisterss 5yo son has over 30 kids in his class. 30!
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amother




Lemon


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 6:47 pm
Some schools are trying to make sure the parents are hashkafically sound and strong, and in doing that, they use a judgement / rating system That is skewed against BT or people from a background lacking yichus. This is terribly unfair, with the results inaccurate, but I think thats what the schools are getting at. I don’t think it’s all about image and reputation.

In other cases, it’s simply supply and demand, and whoever has the most pull (money?) wins.
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rainbow dash









  


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 6:58 pm
Not only is it in schools. I've been renting my apartment for over 5 years and we got a new neighbour upstairs who is chasidish. Because we are not chasidish nor the group that they are she was for 2 yrs trying to kick us out. My husband even went to Israel to their rebbi to get a letter from him saying that they have to let us live here for 10 years or let us buy the place. They ignored the letter. In the end my landlord sold it to them but with a clause in the contract that they have to let us live here for 4 years. If it wasn't for that we would be out on the St. Sorry but you don't move into a building knowing who the neighbours are with the intention to kick them out. I see from this thread that such sickness is in schools also. Sad.
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thunderstorm









  


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 7:46 pm
rainbow dash wrote:
Not only is it in schools. I've been renting my apartment for over 5 years and we got a new neighbour upstairs who is chasidish. Because we are not chasidish nor the group that they are she was for 2 yrs trying to kick us out. My husband even went to Israel to their rebbi to get a letter from him saying that they have to let us live here for 10 years or let us buy the place. They ignored the letter. In the end my landlord sold it to them but with a clause in the contract that they have to let us live here for 4 years. If it wasn't for that we would be out on the St. Sorry but you don't move into a building knowing who the neighbours are with the intention to kick them out. I see from this thread that such sickness is in schools also. Sad.

Rainbowdash you hit on a whole other topic and sadly I agree with you. There is just something very wrong within the frum world especially in the tri state area possibly other places too.
I live on a quiet street and someone that was looking at a house got my number and called to ask me who the other people on the block are. We are just four houses . Me, and three houses. A gentile with a dog, the house for sale and a house owned by someone in Brooklyn that rents out part of it to a modern divorcee with kids.
I got a call from a prospective buyer asking me first what she could do to bother the gentile enough so that he moves out quickly. The second question when she heard what type of family lives here was "Do you have her landlords number so I could call him and ask how dare he rent out his house in such a "torahdig" and "chashuv" neighborhood to such modern people".
Who do people think they are? They plan to move in and "change" everyone to be like them! No regard for chilul HaShem , sinas chinam or pure rishus!!!! All in the name of Yiddishkeit no less . So yes, this is a whole other spin off.
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amother




Turquoise


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 7:56 pm
Maybe someone has the link, but there's a video on YouTube where someone goes to R Aharon Leib Shteinman ztl and asks him whether the school is required to accept a child with a less distinguished background (I don't remember the exact details) R Shteinman gets visibly angry and starts screaming, "gaavah! gaavah!" They again explain why it's better for the school not to have this kind of background, and he keeps screaming, "gaavah! gaavah!"

So there you have it, from the mouth of a gadol hador. Too bad most have too much gaavah to even consult a gadol.
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thunderstorm









  


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 8:10 pm
amother wrote:
Maybe someone has the link, but there's a video on YouTube where someone goes to R Aharon Leib Shteinman ztl and asks him whether the school is required to accept a child with a less distinguished background (I don't remember the exact details) R Shteinman gets visibly angry and starts screaming, "gaavah! gaavah!" They again explain why it's better for the school not to have this kind of background, and he keeps screaming, "gaavah! gaavah!"

So there you have it, from the mouth of a gadol hador. Too bad most have too much gaavah to even consult a gadol.

Oh we played this video over and over for ourselves years ago.
Also it was him, Rav Elyashuv or Rav Kanievsky that said if Abraham Avinu was trying to get Yitzchok into school he wouldn't be accepted in today's schools because of his "background"
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OBnursemom









  


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 8:45 pm
thunderstorm wrote:
Rainbowdash you hit on a whole other topic and sadly I agree with you. There is just something very wrong within the frum world especially in the tri state area possibly other places too.
I live on a quiet street and someone that was looking at a house got my number and called to ask me who the other people on the block are. We are just four houses . Me, and three houses. A gentile with a dog, the house for sale and a house owned by someone in Brooklyn that rents out part of it to a modern divorcee with kids.
I got a call from a prospective buyer asking me first what she could do to bother the gentile enough so that he moves out quickly. The second question when she heard what type of family lives here was "Do you have her landlords number so I could call him and ask how dare he rent out his house in such a "torahdig" and "chashuv" neighborhood to such modern people".
Who do people think they are? They plan to move in and "change" everyone to be like them! No regard for chilul HaShem , sinas chinam or pure rishus!!!! All in the name of Yiddishkeit no less . So yes, this is a whole other spin off.


I would tell her I can’t help her because I don’t want a neighbor like her.
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TwinsMommy









  


Post  Wed, Jun 13 2018, 8:49 pm
To the poster asking about Cleveland..... we have three Orthodox schools (and a boy's high school which may or may not be official and an upcoming girl's high school which hasn't yet started but they're in fundraising mode)

My husband worked in two of the schools and we met with the third about possibly enrolling one of our kids (isn't happening (yet?) in the end).

For the most part there doesn't seem to be issues GETTING INTO the schools, regardless of whether your hashkafa "matches"--- there are non frum people at Mizrachi, and there are tv watchers at YDT and there are Chabadniks at HAC--- that's a plus for certain. The problem is that there isn't enough of a community effort between schools and parents to ensure that everyone gets along with each other. If you live on a block with kids from another school, play with them! I've heard "they go to Mizrachi, they're Jewish non jews". "your daughter shouldn't go to Mizrachi because your husband wears a bekeshe on Shabbos". "You can't send one of your children to our school because your others attend another--- give us your whole family". There is a definite middos difference, too, in general, between the students of each of the schools--- I daven that every parent, student, and faculty from every school work hard on making friends from every school. Before choosing a school don't base your decision solely on hashkafa--- base it on how the school runs, the middos of the students, etc.
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amother




Mint


Post  Thu, Jun 14 2018, 1:53 am
thunderstorm wrote:
Rainbowdash you hit on a whole other topic and sadly I agree with you. There is just something very wrong within the frum world especially in the tri state area possibly other places too.
I live on a quiet street and someone that was looking at a house got my number and called to ask me who the other people on the block are. We are just four houses . Me, and three houses. A gentile with a dog, the house for sale and a house owned by someone in Brooklyn that rents out part of it to a modern divorcee with kids.
I got a call from a prospective buyer asking me first what she could do to bother the gentile enough so that he moves out quickly. The second question when she heard what type of family lives here was "Do you have her landlords number so I could call him and ask how dare he rent out his house in such a "torahdig" and "chashuv" neighborhood to such modern people".
Who do people think they are? They plan to move in and "change" everyone to be like them! No regard for chilul HaShem , sinas chinam or pure rishus!!!! All in the name of Yiddishkeit no less . So yes, this is a whole other spin off.


Those type of people make me mad, but if were going to be honest, those people are not exclusive to the frum population. Although it's frustrating that they will give me a bad name, I guess it's all in Hashem's hand. I suppose it's the way black people feel when there's constant murders and robberies by black people, and people begin to fear them. Yes it's unfair, but that's life. Don't make this a frum problem, that's what frustrated me.

I had a conversation with a friend who's daughter is very anti the system. She was bullied a lot there, and claims that if she went to school in the USA she would not of been bullied, the schools are more accepting and less tolerant. My response was: "I went to an OOT tolerant school where we had a massive mix of yeshivish, MO, Mizrachi, AND anyone in between. There was 1 Jewish day school, everyone went there. I was bullied for many many years as a child and it's effect on my emotional health and the trauma will affect me for the rest of my life, statistics actually say that 1/3 of children ARE bullied sometime in their lifetime.".

Her response. "Okay you were a fluke, I don't believe that, it's the chareidi system."

Rolling Eyes Can we differentiate between problems that affect the entire world and "frum" problems. I know we are supposed to be holier and stuff, but were human and we as a population suffer from many "normal world problems". Don't make it a "system" problem.

Sorry about the rant! I had to say this. I love your posts Thunderstorm, and Ia do agree those people were jerks, and reading your post got me mad. But remember jerks are found everywhere, although it's sad they use yiddishkeit as a venue or validation for being a jerk.
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