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Crash course what going on with immigration?
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amother
Smokey


 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 6:56 pm
In a different thread, I asked how it is that the same people who are unhappy with the current situation, also oppose securing our borders.

Something else I've wondered about is, how is it that the same people who wish to expand the definition of asylum so as to include anyone wishing to come in to this country for economic opportunity, also oppose those very economic principles that have made this country rich?

And another question I have is, Why it is that the same people who have such compassion for immigrants that they believe in practically open borders, also generally oppose US military action in other countries that would protect and save people being persecuted by tyrannical regimes?

So many contradictions.
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amother
Smokey


 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 6:58 pm
Fox wrote:
We were lied to once again.

Here's a tweet from Senator Kamala Harris of California:

Quote:
This Executive Order doesn’t fix the crisis. Indefinitely detaining children with their families in camps is inhumane and will not make us safe.

3:11 PM - 20 Jun 2018


So we can't detain children without their parents, and we can't detain them with their parents. Looks like we'll just have to let them go!

The goal was never to prevent family separation. It was always to promote open borders.


...And future democrat voters [ducks and runs]
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 6:58 pm
If protecting the boarders means creating another generation of Dreamers whose parents have been deported while their children grow up here in foster care, how have we accomplished protecting the boarder?
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Jeanette




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 7:00 pm
amother wrote:
In a different thread, I asked how it is that the same people who are unhappy with the current situation, also oppose securing our borders.

Something else I've wondered about is, how is it that the same people who wish to expand the definition of asylum so as to include anyone wishing to come in to this country for economic opportunity, also oppose those very economic principles that have made this country rich?

And another question I have is, Why it is that the same people who have such compassion for immigrants that they believe in practically open borders, also generally oppose US military action in other countries that would protect and save people being persecuted by tyrannical regimes?

So many contradictions.


Strawman.

Straw man.

Straw man.

Does that answer your question?

Seriously, if you want to argue the pros and cons of a particular policy, please do so. But don't lump together unrelated issues, misstate the arguments and then expect people to defend them (on your terms).
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 7:10 pm
Jeanette wrote:
Strawman.

Straw man.

Straw man.

Does that answer your question?

Seriously, if you want to argue the pros and cons of a particular policy, please do so. But don't lump together unrelated issues, misstate the arguments and then expect people to defend them (on your terms).


Why Jeanette, you love to control discussions and have them happen only on your terms. You told me not to discuss the economy in this thread. That's pretty controlling.
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amother
Smokey


 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 7:25 pm
Jeanette wrote:
Strawman.

Straw man.

Straw man.

Does that answer your question?

Seriously, if you want to argue the pros and cons of a particular policy, please do so. But don't lump together unrelated issues, misstate the arguments and then expect people to defend them (on your terms).


This is how it seems to me, based on irl conversations I've had and from what I read online. I find it truly baffling.

But if you want to take just the issue of this particular thread: If the true aim is NOT open borders, AND you despise the current situation, then what is the rationale behind opposing a wall??

I have yet to hear an explanation of any sort, just like I have yet to hear a rational explanation for why tariff equity would be a bad thing, but I digress.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 7:32 pm
amother wrote:
This is how it seems to me, based on irl conversations I've had and from what I read online. I find it truly baffling.

But if you want to take just the issue of this particular thread: If the true aim is NOT open borders, AND you despise the current situation, then what is the rationale behind opposing a wall??

I have yet to hear an explanation of any sort, just like I have yet to hear a rational explanation for why tariff equity would be a bad thing, but I digress.



From what I have heard about opposition to the wall is not about the openness of the border but it is the following:

1) acquisition of private lands

2) waterways and terrain that make the wall impossible at those points

3) the huge expense of building and maintaining the wall

4) drugs coming over the wall on drones

5) tunnels and other ways around a wall

6) disruption of migration patterns of wildlife

This is not to say that anything that would keep out drugs, gangs, weapons, prostitution, human trafficking, etc should not be tried but it has to be an option that isn't a total waste of money and effort.
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Jeanette




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 7:37 pm
amother wrote:
This is how it seems to me, based on irl conversations I've had and from what I read online. I find it truly baffling.

But if you want to take just the issue of this particular thread: If the true aim is NOT open borders, AND you despise the current situation, then what is the rationale behind opposing a wall??

I have yet to hear an explanation of any sort, just like I have yet to hear a rational explanation for why tariff equity would be a bad thing, but I digress.


I'm anti ripping babies from their mothers. If that makes me open borders, so be it

Do I support a border wall? Maybe. Can you answer some questions first?

How do you think the wall would work?

Do.you think the wall will be cost effective?

They're now estimating that the cost will be $25 billion. Is there any reason to believe that this number may be an underestimate?

Building this wall is a years-long project. What happens if they start building the wall and it gets abandoned in the middle (the government changes, political sentiment changes, conditions in central America change). Is it worthwhile to sink a lot of money into the wall now? Will there be immediate benefits?

Who will be accountable to make sure the money allocated for the border wall actually gets spent on that purpose? Is it possible the money will be diverted to other purposes? Who will be the contractors to build the wall? How will the contracts be awarded?
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amother
Silver


 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 7:47 pm
Fox wrote:
We were lied to once again.

Here's a tweet from Senator Kamala Harris of California:

Quote:
This Executive Order doesn’t fix the crisis. Indefinitely detaining children with their families in camps is inhumane and will not make us safe.

3:11 PM - 20 Jun 2018


So we can't detain children without their parents, and we can't detain them with their parents. Looks like we'll just have to let them go!

The goal was never to prevent family separation. It was always to promote open borders.

Looks like he wants the court to reverse the Flores decision which will presumably not happen (at least not through the CA courts, it may have a chance in Supreme court but it will take a while til we get there). So we now have open borders and can expect millions of illegal aliens to come here for all the freebies that this bad, racist country has to offer them. Congrats to all the lefties for getting what they want from this evil, racist Trump. Hope you have the money to support the influx of people who will be coming here in the near future.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 8:04 pm
amother wrote:
Looks like he wants the court to reverse the Flores decision which will presumably not happen (at least not through the CA courts, it may have a chance in Supreme court but it will take a while til we get there). So we now have open borders and can expect millions of illegal aliens to come here for all the freebies that this bad, racist country has to offer them. Congrats to all the lefties for getting what they want from this evil, racist Trump. Hope you have the money to support the influx of people who will be coming here in the near future.



Well, as long as there are crops to be picked in the field.....
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amother
Smokey


 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 11:00 pm
Jeanette wrote:
I'm anti ripping babies from their mothers. If that makes me open borders, so be it

Do I support a border wall? Maybe. Can you answer some questions first?

How do you think the wall would work?

Do.you think the wall will be cost effective?

They're now estimating that the cost will be $25 billion. Is there any reason to believe that this number may be an underestimate?

Building this wall is a years-long project. What happens if they start building the wall and it gets abandoned in the middle (the government changes, political sentiment changes, conditions in central America change). Is it worthwhile to sink a lot of money into the wall now? Will there be immediate benefits?

Who will be accountable to make sure the money allocated for the border wall actually gets spent on that purpose? Is it possible the money will be diverted to other purposes? Who will be the contractors to build the wall? How will the contracts be awarded?


So the wall is being opposed by democrats on grounds of big government and high spending?
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Jeanette




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 21 2018, 12:51 am
amother wrote:
So the wall is being opposed by democrats on grounds of big government and high spending?


It's a question of costs versus benefits. If we have $25 billion to spend, should it go to a wall? is it worth it? what are the benefits? Will it pay off in the long run? Will it go over budget (probably)?

I'd expect the government to make that assessment before any big project. if you've noticed, no big Republican senators are rushing to fund the wall either, for pretty much the same reasons.

Anyway Mexico is paying for the wall so this is all hypothetical anyway.
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amother
Smokey


 

Post Thu, Jun 21 2018, 11:21 am
Jeanette wrote:
It's a question of costs versus benefits. If we have $25 billion to spend, should it go to a wall? is it worth it? what are the benefits? Will it pay off in the long run? Will it go over budget (probably)?

I'd expect the government to make that assessment before any big project. if you've noticed, no big Republican senators are rushing to fund the wall either, for pretty much the same reasons.

Anyway Mexico is paying for the wall so this is all hypothetical anyway.


These concerns are logistical in nature, not policy-based.
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Jeanette




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 21 2018, 12:02 pm
amother wrote:
These concerns are logistical in nature, not policy-based.


Exactly. Which is why many politicians on both the right and left are unwilling to commit huge sums of money to the wall without some pretty convincing evidence that it will be cost efficient and practical.
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vintagebknyc




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 21 2018, 12:04 pm
Is this post public? Oh joy, a Chillel Hashem for all the internet to see.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 21 2018, 12:19 pm
Jeanette wrote:
It's a question of costs versus benefits. If we have $25 billion to spend, should it go to a wall? is it worth it? what are the benefits? Will it pay off in the long run? Will it go over budget (probably)?

I'd expect the government to make that assessment before any big project. if you've noticed, no big Republican senators are rushing to fund the wall either, for pretty much the same reasons.

Anyway Mexico is paying for the wall so this is all hypothetical anyway.


The wall is worth it from a financial point of view. It is a one time expense which saves many times more than what a porous border costs us annually.

People are not rushing to fund the wall for several different reasons including they rather not be seen as being against illegal immigrants or being seen to support Trump or they are pro- open borders.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 21 2018, 12:40 pm
Squishy wrote:
The wall is worth it from a financial point of view. It is a one time expense which saves many times more than what a porous border costs us annually.

People are not rushing to fund the wall for several different reasons including they rather not be seen as being against illegal immigrants or being seen to support Trump or they are pro- open borders.


Except for the $750 million or so annual maintenance costs.

But no one has explained why the fence will protect the US, or why it can't be circumvented.

Smugglers already use tunnels. In April 2016, U.S. law enforcement officials discovered a drug tunnel that ran more than half a mile from Tijuana to San Diego and was equipped with ventilation vents, rails, and electricity. And that's only one. Between 1990 and 2016, 224 tunnels have been unearthed at the U.S.–Mexico border.

Harm to border communities. To the environment.

And would it actually be effective?

And also please don't forget that a huge percentage of undocumented aliens -- some say even a majority -- are people who overstayed legal visas. No wall is helping that.
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 21 2018, 12:44 pm
Apart from the wall being opposed for all reasons cited above, it's also OBSOLETE because one can use high technology procedures in order to create a more effective barrier.

Long stretches of the border could not actually have a wall for various reasons. And it is ironic that the wall is NOT supported by most people who actually live in border states except for the lunatic fringe.

It is the Luddite solution which is to be expected by a Luddite President who wants to bring back obsolete coal as a source of energy rather investing in new forms of energy which would create more jobs and would help keep the US competitive. China IS investing in new forms of energy technology.

I didn't support Reagan because I think trickle down economics is a farce but if we reject Emma Lazarus as being outdated at least let us listen to Ronald Reagan in his farewell address to the nation


iI've spoken of the shining city all my political life, but I don't know if I ever quite communicated what I saw when I said it. But in my mind, it was a tall proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, wind swept, God blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace - a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity, and if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors, and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here.

That's how I saw it, and see it still. How Stands the City?

And how stands the city on this winter night? More prosperous, more secure and happier than it was eight years ago. But more than that: after 200 years, two centuries, she still stands strong and true on the granite ridge, and her glow has held steady no matter what storm.

And she's still a beacon, still a magnet for all who must have freedom, for all the Pilgrims from all the lost places who are hurtling through the darkness, toward home.


And hopefully America can regain its light after this abomination of a Presidency run by a man who has no respect or knowledge of the constitution and admires dictators like Putin is done and is a black mark in our history.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 21 2018, 1:03 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Except for the $750 million or so annual maintenance costs.

But no one has explained why the fence will protect the US, or why it can't be circumvented.

Smugglers already use tunnels. In April 2016, U.S. law enforcement officials discovered a drug tunnel that ran more than half a mile from Tijuana to San Diego and was equipped with ventilation vents, rails, and electricity. And that's only one. Between 1990 and 2016, 224 tunnels have been unearthed at the U.S.–Mexico border.

Harm to border communities. To the environment.

And would it actually be effective?

And also please don't forget that a huge percentage of undocumented aliens -- some say even a majority -- are people who overstayed legal visas. No wall is helping that.


Immigrants cost the government $300billion annually. (I have heard other figures that are less than half that amount which is still substantial. ) $750 million maintenance is only .0025 of the $300 billion drain. The maintenance will easily cover itself in savings.

I believe the fence could be circumvented, but the costs to do so would be much higher to breach our borders . Maybe they need helicopters or balloons. But right now one illegal immigrant told me the coyotes are getting $7000 to smuggle illegal immigrants across our border.

Would you kindly cite the figure that half the illegal immigrants over stay their visas? I am curious.

Perhaps we need E Varify or some other system to weed out these people who overstay their welcome.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jun 21 2018, 1:08 pm
Amarante wrote:
Apart from the wall being opposed for all reasons cited above, it's also OBSOLETE because one can use high technology procedures in order to create a more effective barrier.

Long stretches of the border could not actually have a wall for various reasons. And it is ironic that the wall is NOT supported by most people who actually live in border states except for the lunatic fringe.

It is the Luddite solution which is to be expected by a Luddite President who wants to bring back obsolete coal as a source of energy rather investing in new forms of energy which would create more jobs and would help keep the US competitive. China IS investing in new forms of energy technology.

I didn't support Reagan because I think trickle down economics is a farce but if we reject Emma Lazarus as being outdated at least let us listen to Ronald Reagan in his farewell address to the nation


iI've spoken of the shining city all my political life, but I don't know if I ever quite communicated what I saw when I said it. But in my mind, it was a tall proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, wind swept, God blessed, and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace - a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity, and if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors, and the doors were open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here.

That's how I saw it, and see it still. How Stands the City?

And how stands the city on this winter night? More prosperous, more secure and happier than it was eight years ago. But more than that: after 200 years, two centuries, she still stands strong and true on the granite ridge, and her glow has held steady no matter what storm.

And she's still a beacon, still a magnet for all who must have freedom, for all the Pilgrims from all the lost places who are hurtling through the darkness, toward home.


And hopefully America can regain its light after this abomination of a Presidency run by a man who has no respect or knowledge of the constitution and admires dictators like Putin is done and is a black mark in our history.


America is regaining its hope for our underclass with our economy under Trump.

You do realize we live better than billions of people. If you let those billions in, we can't handle it. At what point would you stop? Or would you continue to let everyone in until er collapse?
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