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Illegal vs compassion
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amother
Firebrick


 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 10:46 am
At what point do we ignore the legality of something in favor of compassion?

Take 2 current running threads.
The one about illegal asylum seekers being separated from their children and the one about a medicine gemach.

When something is morally and ethically right but it’s also illegal what do you do?
When something is harmful but its the legal way do you follow the law?
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amother
Teal


 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 11:12 am
amother wrote:
At what point do we ignore the legality of something in favor of compassion?

Take 2 current running threads.
The one about illegal asylum seekers being separated from their children and the one about a medicine gemach.

When something is morally and ethically right but it’s also illegal what do you do?
When something is harmful but its the legal way do you follow the law?


We follow halacha not the law.
There happens to be a halacha to follow your countries laws.
But halacha ALWAYS trumps legal laws, so if halacha says do it, do it.
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LittleDucky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 11:13 am
I think Its much deeper than that. If its compassionate for one, is it harming them or someone else? On a simpler note if kid A cries that they want the treat Kid B got from his teacher what do I do? I dont have another great and cant buy it (say its super expensive and came from city far away). So there is only one. Compassion for A would force B to share or split it. But that hurts B- they earned it, cant enjoy it etc...
The medicine gemach can hurt people- addicts, people who might be allergic, it can make the condition worse if not prescribed because we arent all doctors and maybe we dont need it... And it hurts the general community who abuse antibiotics and contribute to antibiotic resistant superbugs (it was mentioned getting antibiotics from there...).
But its compassionate! Giving medicine! What can be more compassionate than that!!
Same with anything in life- we need to balance how helping one may impact or hurt others. Homeowners near the southern border have complained that illegal immigration is ruining their land- broken fences, garbage, ruined crops plus violence and increased crime. Compassion for one can and does hurt others.
Bottom line: its complicated.
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 11:13 am
amother wrote:


(1)When something is morally and ethically right but it’s also illegal what do you do?
(2)When something is harmful but its the legal way do you follow the law?


(1)If people will be harmed by following a law and noone will be harmed if they don't then I wouldn't treat secular laws as if they were given on Har Sinai.

But without a pressing need to do so it is wrong to break a law even if doing so presents no moral or ethical issues. Once you start breaking laws you very quickly decide that any law you want to break doesn't make moral or ethical sense.

(2)No. If it is harmful it would be against halacha. No matter what the secular laws allow.
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amother
Babyblue


 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 11:15 am
amother wrote:
At what point do we ignore the legality of something in favor of compassion?

Take 2 current running threads.
The one about illegal asylum seekers being separated from their children and the one about a medicine gemach.

When something is morally and ethically right but it’s also illegal what do you do?
When something is harmful but its the legal way do you follow the law?

If a poor person is speeding then would it be compassionate to give him a ticket if he wouldn't have the money to pay for it?
If someone doesn't have money for food then is it compassionate to allow him to steal food to survive?
If someone is homeless then would it be compassionate to allow him to break into a house and live there so that he has shelter?

At what point does compassion become harmful to people? How can we possibly be in a position to support millions of illegal aliens when so many of our citizens are hurting themselves?
What I learned growing up is that charity begins at home. I am not obligated to help anyone if I cannot help myself. I don't have to give maaser if I don't earn a paycheck. And I have no obligation to help illegal aliens when there are many American citizens who can't even afford food or shelter for themselves.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 1:25 pm
amother wrote:
If a poor person is speeding then would it be compassionate to give him a ticket if he wouldn't have the money to pay for it?
If someone doesn't have money for food then is it compassionate to allow him to steal food to survive?
If someone is homeless then would it be compassionate to allow him to break into a house and live there so that he has shelter?

At what point does compassion become harmful to people? How can we possibly be in a position to support millions of illegal aliens when so many of our citizens are hurting themselves?
What I learned growing up is that charity begins at home. I am not obligated to help anyone if I cannot help myself. I don't have to give maaser if I don't earn a paycheck. And I have no obligation to help illegal aliens when there are many American citizens who can't even afford food or shelter for themselves.



The question in all these threads wasn't about how to support illegal aliens but in how to prevent children from being grabbed from mothers at the border and shipped off to places as far away as Michigan or maybe even farther. They are coming in illegally but we can be compassionate to their babies and small children.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 2:15 pm
southernbubby wrote:
The question in all these threads wasn't about how to support illegal aliens but in how to prevent children from being grabbed from mothers at the border and shipped off to places as far away as Michigan or maybe even farther. They are coming in illegally but we can be compassionate to their babies and small children.


Of course.

People are setting up a straw man -- we have to open the border and allow everyone in, or we have to separate children from their parents. Well, how about we actually don't have to do either one.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 2:55 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Of course.

People are setting up a straw man -- we have to open the border and allow everyone in, or we have to separate children from their parents. Well, how about we actually don't have to do either one.


Obama apparently sent back 1 million people, together with their kids. Children were separated if it was suspected that they were being used by non-related adults to gain entry but were already separated from their families.

We don't have to keep them here but I don't see what we gain by keeping the children and deporting their parents.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 6:11 pm
Well, the point is moot now that our peerless (in his own eyes) leader has listened to the people for a change. However, don't get too complacent. Having done us this "favor", he is bound to use that as a trump card (oh, golly, I didn't really say that, did I?) to foist some other travesty upon the American people. I can just hear him now: "You OWE me this. I let you have your way about the Mexican immigrant children. NO ONE has done as much for immigrants as I have. Now it's your turn to do something for ME. I don't think anyone can say that electiing me President for Life is too much to ask."

Get your passports in order, people.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 6:21 pm
We really have to wait and see how it plays out. Currently, 2000 kids have to now find their parents and vice versa. Then they will sit together in detention centers for who knows how long. Then they will probably be deported but at least they will be together. Then the Flores law has not changed so if they are in detention together for too long, the kids could be taken again.

I am looking forward to press coverage of happy smiling faces as mothers are handed back their babies who may no longer be able to breast feed and little children who may not remember what their mothers looked like. Even if it will be a big adjustment for these families to be back together, it will be worth seeing the happiness which I hope will be real happiness.

Truthfully, when I see pictures of families forced to live in squalor while waiting for their court date, I tell myself that at least they are all together so as a family, they can handle anything.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 6:23 pm
zaq wrote:
Well, the point is moot now that our peerless (in his own eyes) leader has listened to the people for a change. However, don't get too complacent. Having done us this "favor", he is bound to use that as a trump card (oh, golly, I didn't really say that, did I?) to foist some other travesty upon the American people. I can just hear him now: "You OWE me this. I let you have your way about the Mexican immigrant children. NO ONE has done as much for immigrants as I have. Now it's your turn to do something for ME. I don't think anyone can say that electiing me President for Life is too much to ask."

Get your passports in order, people.


Well Zaq, he is 71 years old, are you forgetting that? President for life is a self-limiting situation. Then it gets passed on to his first born.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 7:22 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Well Zaq, he is 71 years old, are you forgetting that? President for life is a self-limiting situation. Then it gets passed on to his first born.


The man could live to be 100 and probably will. We want impeachment NOW!
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 7:28 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Well Zaq, he is 71 years old, are you forgetting that? President for life is a self-limiting situation. Then it gets passed on to his first born.


I vote - second born child.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 7:36 pm
southernbubby wrote:
We really have to wait and see how it plays out. Currently, 2000 kids have to now find their parents and vice versa. Then they will sit together in detention centers for who knows how long. Then they will probably be deported but at least they will be together. Then the Flores law has not changed so if they are in detention together for too long, the kids could be taken again.

I am looking forward to press coverage of happy smiling faces as mothers are handed back their babies who may no longer be able to breast feed and little children who may not remember what their mothers looked like. Even if it will be a big adjustment for these families to be back together, it will be worth seeing the happiness which I hope will be real happiness.

Truthfully, when I see pictures of families forced to live in squalor while waiting for their court date, I tell myself that at least they are all together so as a family, they can handle anything.


Tell me how we should house them for free. Should it be at a middle class standard? Then we will be abused for taking them away from their nearly created situation.

Are we obligated to house them better than our own citizens?

Have you ever been in the houses of illegal immigrants from Central America? Have you seen how they live when they have the liberty to at keep their homes to their standard?

In another thread you mentioned giving the kids toys. How long do you think they would keep the toys pristine? Should we also give toys to our own citizens?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 7:45 pm
zaq wrote:
The man could live to be 100 and probably will. We want impeachment NOW!



So go to your local library and take out a book by Allan Lichtman called The Case for Impeachment. Then enjoy the next two years of President Mike Pence and VP Paul Ryan. Cheers!
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 7:48 pm
Squishy wrote:
Tell me how we should house them for free. Should it be at a middle class standard? Then we will be abused for taking them away from their nearly created situation.

Are we obligated to house them better than our own citizens?

Have you ever been in the houses of illegal immigrants from Central America? Have you seen how they live when they have the liberty to at keep their homes to their standard?

In another thread you mentioned giving the kids toys. How long do you think they would keep the toys pristine? Should we also give toys to our own citizens?



I don't expect them to have anything better and what I am saying is that I am just happy that they are together despite the squalor. Where did I say anything about toys? I like toys, and I buy lots of toys for my grandchildren but can't remember toys as a topic in regard to these kids. It does look to me that the Walmart warehouse academy is a great place for kids and I remember saying that. They have lots of toys in some of these kid detention facilities and I think that is great.

ETA I also think that these people were hoodwinked and snookered by some very unscrupulous boarder smugglers who promised them a happy life in the US in return for whatever money these people could cough up. They really didn't know what awaited them.

Also, in regard to toys, I think that charitable groups give those and not the US government although in a federal facility, anything is possible. The government buys all kinds of stuff.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 8:16 pm
Squishy wrote:
I vote - second born child.



You mean we will still get to vote?
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 8:56 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I don't expect them to have anything better and what I am saying is that I am just happy that they are together despite the squalor. Where did I say anything about toys? I like toys, and I buy lots of toys for my grandchildren but can't remember toys as a topic in regard to these kids. It does look to me that the Walmart warehouse academy is a great place for kids and I remember saying that. They have lots of toys in some of these kid detention facilities and I think that is great.

ETA I also think that these people were hoodwinked and snookered by some very unscrupulous boarder smugglers who promised them a happy life in the US in return for whatever money these people could cough up. They really didn't know what awaited them.

Also, in regard to toys, I think that charitable groups give those and not the US government although in a federal facility, anything is possible. The government buys all kinds of stuff.


You mentioned about the kids not having toys. You said they didn't even have toys to play with.

I can't imagine that illegal immigrants are responsible tenants. In every home I have been in, they live in filth. I have been in a about a dozen. I can't imagine the newly arrived illegal ones keep their toys any better than the existing ones. The toys will become junk quickly. Their group norms are different than American's.

I think you are wrong about them not knowing what to expect here. They are not getting their advice exclusively from their coyotes. Many of them have friends and relatives here or friends of friends and relatives of friends. The ones here speak often to those at home.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 8:59 pm
southernbubby wrote:
You mean we will still get to vote?


Sure, we can vote her in like we voted her father. It looks to me she is being groomed for President. I wouldn't be surprised if Don Jr tried his hand at politics.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jun 20 2018, 9:06 pm
Squishy wrote:
You mentioned about the kids not having toys. You said they didn't even have toys to play with.

I can't imagine that illegal immigrants are responsible tenants. In every home I have been in, they live in filth. I have been in a about a dozen. I can't imagine the newly arrived illegal ones keep their toys any better than the existing ones. The toys will become junk quickly. Their group norms are different than American's.

I think you are wrong about them not knowing what to expect here. They are not getting their advice exclusively from their coyotes. Many of them have friends and relatives here or friends of friends and relatives of friends. The ones here speak often to those at home.



Could be they do know what is going on but I am not saying that they need wonderful accommodations but the kids in the holding areas had nothing at all to play with and even if they break the toys within hours, at least give them some coloring books and crayons. Even if they are housed in tents, they can be happy that they are living as a family and are getting to remain with their children.
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