Don't judge Judaism by Jews, or Islam by muslims

amother

Honeydew

Mon, Jun 25 2018, 5:38 pm

My deep thinking (struggling teen) is trying to come to terms with this concept. He's often turned off by the actions of the ultra frum (which we are lol), and is constantly being told by mechanchim not to judge Judaism the religion by the Jewish practitioners.
So he's wondering why the same "curtesy" shouldn't be extended to the muslims.
How does this all make sense???

gingertop

Mon, Jun 25 2018, 6:05 pm

amother wrote:

The courtesy should definitely be extended to Muslims and it's no courtesy, just simply about living unprejudiced lives.

leah233

Mon, Jun 25 2018, 6:07 pm

Two points

(1)I agree if Muslims said don't judge Islam by Muslims. A religion can not be judged by those who fail to live up to it's rules and ideals.

BUT most Muslims suicide bombers etc. believe they are acting in the name of Muslim. There are plenty of Muslims Imams who encourage such behavior .Most frum people engaged in bad behavior don't really believe their behavior is sanctioned by the Torah. You would be very hard pressed to find a respected Rav who encourages bad behavior

(2)The Torah produces people like the Chofetz Chaim etc. Which other system produces so many people who live on such a high level of universally accepted human values? Who would be a Muslim or secular counterpart to the CC? Based on a statistical ration there should be thousand of such people.

I've read plenty of biographies of religious leaders who were considered saints by members of their religion. Altruistic good people they may have been. In the ballpark of (for example) the Chofetz Chaim they weren't.

Last edited by leah233 on Mon, Jun 25 2018, 6:15 pm; edited 5 times in total

amother

Denim

Mon, Jun 25 2018, 6:08 pm

Of course you judge the religion by he people who practice it. A religion has n value if it not making people better people. That's why I am Modern Orthodox because in my way of judging, they are the nicest people. That's who I want as a model for hope to emulate God. That's exactly why I am not ultra religious. But ymmv.

Maya

Mon, Jun 25 2018, 6:28 pm

The original argument doesn’t make sense to begin with. Whom else will you judge Judaism by, the Buddhists? Of course you judge Judaism by the Jews, as they are the ones interpreting it and practicing it. The same holds true for all religions.
The apologetics of this argument as it applies to Jews is laughable.

gingertop

Mon, Jun 25 2018, 6:36 pm

Maya wrote:

I guess it depends if the judging is for religion or race/ethnic group.

As a religion, it makes sense to see how people are practicing it. You can allow a few bad apples but not too many before saying that this faith is corrupting.

As a race or ethnic group, we should definitely treat each individual as an individual and not allow them to suffer the consequences of the members of their tribe.

shoshanim999

Mon, Jun 25 2018, 6:43 pm

Maya wrote:

The difference is, as someone pointed at above, is that Jews who behave badly are often not following the Torah. Someone who steals, has affairs, or mistreats his wife, is acting in direct violation of the Torah. On the other hand central to Islam are ideas such as martyrdom, jihad, and death to non believers. We can't separate the bad behavior from the religion because the literal interpretation of the religion advocates the bad behavior.

amother

Jade

Mon, Jun 25 2018, 6:52 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

these are good points.

But OP - what are the actions of the practitioners that your teen is troubled by? Are they clearly anti-Torah - or cultural?

tichellady

Mon, Jun 25 2018, 6:58 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

What about the men who attack the women who lead service at the kotel? Or the people who throw rocks at women not dressed to their modesty standards? Or the communities that money launder or commit fraud in order to be eligible for benefits and believe it’s fine since our government isn’t jewish? Or the batei din that require a woman to pay her husband in order to receive her get? These people do not believe they are acting in direct violation of the Torah, in fact they often have halakhic justifications for their actions.

Mommyg8

Mon, Jun 25 2018, 7:04 pm

tichellady wrote:

Do you REALLY think that this is the same as throwing bombs and other stuff at innocent people? Do you really think that this is the same as cutting off a man's hand if he steals? Or of burying a woman alive if she is perceived to be unfaithful?

Do you really think that Jewish (ultra-orthodox) men treat their wives the same way that the Muslims treat their wives? That they treat their women the same way that Muslims treat their women (in fundamentalist countries)?

tichellady

Mon, Jun 25 2018, 7:18 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

No, I’m not equating these things but I don’t think they have to be the same in order to answer the op’s question.

amother

Maroon

Mon, Jun 25 2018, 7:22 pm

I'm not quite getting the hang of this discussion - some posts lean to practicing a religion b/c one is a member of that nation who practice and believe in that faith.

Other posts lean to not stereotyping and prejudice.

OP dear, which of the 2 (or other) is the subject of your question?

ty

Mommyg8

Mon, Jun 25 2018, 7:28 pm

tichellady wrote:

No, I’m not equating these things but I don’t think they have to be the same in order to answer the op’s question.

Why not?

When a Moslem is on jihad, he is following his own religion. Which part of our religion says you should throw rocks at people? Engage in money laundering? Or that a woman has to pay her husband to receive a get? There are obviously individuals, like I said earlier, who are doing wrong things, but they are not following our religion.

tichellady

Mon, Jun 25 2018, 7:35 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

He is not following his religion according to non fundamentalist Muslims, he is committing murder. Just like if some Jew today killed someone and said it was because he was a descendant of amalek we would likely conclude the man is a murder, not a zealot of Gd.

There are certainly Jews who believe that these behaviors are part of Torah Judaism. I don’t believe that. You think that when the head of a beit din tells a woman she needs to pay her husband in order to receive a get he thinks he’s going against jewish law? You think that when the head of a yeshiva tells his students to go to the kotel to violently protest women’s prayer groups that he thinks this is against our religion?

amother

Maroon

Mon, Jun 25 2018, 7:45 pm

amother wrote:

Hi OP: your son does seem a deep thinker. He also seems like he doesn't go for "fluff" or "parroting", he wants to know the genuine truth of things. This is a very admirable trait in him. You should have a lot of Yiddish nachas from him, be'H.

Re what you wrote what his mechanchim tell him: Are you sure those are their exact words?
It often happens that even one word misunderstood turns around the meaning of a whole sentence.
Perhaps your son's mechanchim are referring to certain groups of ultra-frum-
extremists or zealots? whose actions I also agree are not leshem Shamayim?

On another note: I wonder what exactly turned your son off from ultra-frum Jews?
something to look into ...
and why do you add lol after your words that your family is ultra frum?
Deep down or sub-consciously are you also perhaps not so happy being ultra-frum?

Please note: I'm not pointing fingers, not at all. Just throwing out questions to think into, which might help you help your son. BE'H.