Question about tzedaka & vacation

amother

Turquoise

Wed, Jul 04 2018, 5:49 pm

My pet peeve! I'm so darn sick and tired of hearing people complain about finances , and ask for assistance when the next thing they are going on vacation or to the country or sending all their children to expensive camps. If I cant afford it , or am making a simcha , we dont vacation, we skip camp that year and we dont go to the country. It's become a given that everything is a NEED on the account of us hard working people that others thing should be giving tzedaka.

Vent over.

amother

Powderblue

Wed, Jul 04 2018, 6:48 pm

camp wrote:

Op, there are so Many people like your relative.
They have huge families and the culture is that everyone will help provide for them. Wether it’s tuition subsidies or hachnosas kallah.
The more it works for them, the more it spirals out of control with crazy demands like vacation or fancy jewelry for 17 year old kallahs.

Don't forgot the government.

amother

Sienna

Wed, Jul 04 2018, 7:12 pm

wifenmother wrote:

OP, I understand how conflicted you feel because I was faced with a similar situation recently. It was very hard for me to do, but I gave anyway. My mitzva is to give when asked. The recipient is the one that has to judge what their needs are. It is not for me as the donor to decide whether or not they need the money, or if they're spending it irresponsibly.

L'fim Tzara Agra. You have the opportunity to earn that much more schar.

that’s not how tzedakah works. The donor is supposed to judge needs and give accordingly. It’s not on the recipient to fulfill your mitzvah of tzedakah. It’s on the giver.
If they don’t really need it, you were not yotzei giving tzedakah.

amother

Apricot

Wed, Jul 04 2018, 7:41 pm

amother wrote:

How is one to judge it correctly? Here is my personal story- my teenage son had a breakdown this year, and started struggling a lot emotionally and in frumkeit. It has been very very difficult for us and we are getting him as much help as possible. At the same time my husbands business took a major plunge and not only did we find ourselves emotionally and mentally depleted from dealing with the problems with our son in addition to still being there for our other kids, we also found ourselves suddenly not able to cover our basic living expenses in addition to the very expensive therapy and evaluations our son needed! Yes I have cleaning help which I debated countless times about cancelling, but it was my sanity and without it I knew I would break. Life was such a struggle at the moment as it is! A family member went to our rav to speak to him about our situation and basically they had some friends give the rav money to cover our sons therapy. Oh what a burden it took off our shoulders at this very difficult time in our lives! I never thought I would have to take from anyone- we were always the givers. We cut down on so many things we were always used to spending on but not everything. We just couldn’t function at the time with everything else going on. I’m sure some of you would say those helping us out weren’t yotzai their Tzedaka but I can’t imagine they weren’t.

octopus

Wed, Jul 04 2018, 7:46 pm

amother wrote:

You had a rav vouch for you. That is very different than a relative coming onto people.

kneidel

Wed, Jul 04 2018, 9:47 pm

I think this is a case where it is good to have two standards. Whilst it is incumbent upon the recipient to use charity money responsibly, this is as far as it refers to yourself. If you are in the fortunate position to be the giver, the second standard should be evoked, in that you should totally disregard how the recipient subsequently spends the money. It is not for you to judge if they spend the money frivolously or not, and in any case how are you to know if what you consider luxuries are for them a true necessity?
In general it is good to cultivate a ‘good eye’ and see others in a good light. We can't know what others are going through and it is proper and correct to be joyous for their ‘vacation'.
I thank HaShem constantly that I am able to be a giver and I am ever cognizant that the money is His alone. In our own life we are somewhat frugal with our spending; the money in the bank is not ours. It has been entrusted to us to be used wisely. Our family thrives on good old fashioned fun and hotels and the likes are not our style. BUT when my sister goes to a hotel after we've helped her pay for yom tov or whatever I totally turn a blind eye. What is good for one, isn't good for all. And I really couldn't care why or how. Those sort of questions are only to be asked from myself. I have a hard enough job trying to improve myself without concerning myself with other people’s possible faults. And you know what I can be really happy for her too!
This is not to say you should hand out charity irresponsibly, it's the after-effect that I'm addressing. Once you've determined a charity cause is legitimate, give and move on!
Some people think that poor people deserve to live in cramped conditions and eat second-rate food or whatever. But why are you more deserving? Is s/he less of a Jew?
And also remember this, it's only the money you give away, that is truly yours. Forever.

southernbubby

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 12:27 am

1) It sounds like it is a friend and not a relative that the tzedukah is being collected for, from what you stated in your opening post. I think that the halachas of tzedukah do place a higher priority on family members than on friends.

2) It sounds like the person who mentioned that this family is in debt and asked you to contribute doesn't have any expectations that you jump in and save the day.

3)You could always ask a rav a sheilah as to how obligated you are to give to this request.

4) It may be cheaper to give some token donation than to feel guilty or have to face people who did expect you to give. You might have to explain that you don't have the ability to give what they expect, if indeed they expect a significant donation.

5) If you do give to something like this, in all probability, you will be asked to do more of the same. Is this something that you want to continue to support, either for their future weddings or for others in the same boat?

6) Do you have or appear to have the ability to help them financially? Whose idea was it to raise money for them? Do they know that people are being approached to donate to them?

amother

Ecru

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 12:44 am

In general, we should try to give and assume that the needs are legitimate. But it's naive to pretend that there aren't some unscrupulous types who take advantage. It's also not helpful to get into a situation where luxuries are defined as needs. That's where it gets tricky, because these are so subjective. At the very least, it requires us to look long and hard at community norms.

For those of us on the giving end, it means living modestly. For those in between, it means recognizing that you can't have everything that rich people have. And all of us should consider whether we want to live in communities where the list of "must haves" includes things only 5 percent of the population can afford.

southernbubby

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 9:42 am

amother wrote:

It becomes even trickier when the whole economic structure of the frum community is based on the sale of luxuries. Think about what the majority of businesses are in the frum community. We don't see very many frum bargain joints. Most frum businesses sell higher end items and specialty foods. We don't go to the frum vegetable dealer looking for discounts. Frum clothing shops have no market for cheap clothes and so forth. Cars for frum families have to be family cars rather than small economy cars. Frum real estate agents are not usually dealing with cheap properties, etc.

These businesses hold up the yeshivas, shuls, and charitable endeavors of the community so rabbonim are not going to call their offerings "unnecessary." At the same time, I advise anyone with questions as to whether to donate to people who take expensive vacations, to ask a rav. You can't go wrong with asking a competent rav, however, the answer to this question for this specific situation may not be applicable to other situations so each one requires it's own inquiry.

I do know someone in the catering business however, who says that he sees frum weddings getting smaller due to economic necessity.

Raisin

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 9:47 am

southernbubby wrote:

I know many shops in frum communities where clothing is reasonably priced and food is discounted. And quite often frum businesses have the best prices for things like home ware and kitchen items and baby equipment.

I don't like the pressure to have big weddings...it would be nice if this could be alleviated.

southernbubby

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 9:57 am

Raisin wrote:

I was in a frum house goods store last week where a small spool of thread was over $5 and a frum grocer where a small container of raspberries was $4.99. Yes there are some frum businesses that sell discount goods but I see lots of frum businesses that are higher than other stores.

I grew up non-frum and we did not buy clothes and jewelry as often as I did after becoming frum. Non-frum people don't have a specific community standard for weddings so people can make then any price range that they want. I do see some baby equipment stores with good prices but those prices might not be as good as Walmart or Ikea. The frum store may be offering better quality, however.

amother

Ecru

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 10:08 am

Because frum Jews need to be walking distance from shul, we have a situation where communities are more economically heterogeneous than others. Since, like it or not, people look to their peers to create expectations, the picture is distorted by the presence of the ultra-rich living right near the poor and middle class.

(This isn't exactly true, because in New York for example, the Jews of Scarsdale are probably richer than the Jews of the Lower East Side. But within communities, there's still a broader range among the frum crowd than otherwise.)

So I think we really have to get it into our heads that just because some - or even most - of the families in your neighborhood can take the whole gang on vacation, doesn't make a long vacation for the gantze mishpoche a standard requirement. But this would require common sense, and that's been outsourced to authority figures who can't speak out against their richest supporters.

That's my analysis.

southernbubby

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 10:44 am

amother wrote:

You would basically have to ask a rav with no skin in the game such as Rabbi Hershel Schachter from Yeshiva University or any rav who isn't directly benefiting from community businesses.

mommy3b2c

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 4:46 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Okay. I stand corrected.

Why do people do it, then? When I was growing up, we lived in an apartment in Manhattan before gentrification had started. Manhattan was noisy and dirty and crowded, back then, not something to aspire to. The air was polluted; there was only one air conditioner in my parent's bedroom, so we were really, really hot; the streets weren't that safe; we really couldn't play outside if we didn't go away. In our bungalow colony, we stayed outside from morning to night and played with other kids, an experience we couldn't have in Manhattan. And our apartment was rather run down, so the bungalow, while a lot smaller, didn't at all feel like a step down for us.

But mommy3b2c, if I recall correctly, you live in a nice neighborhood in Brooklyn, don't you? Do you find that your kids get much out of being squeezed into a tiny bungalow for two months? Or is it the case that all the other kids go away too, so your kids wouldn't have whom to play with?

I feel that the kids get so much out of it, I can’t even explain it properly if I tried. In fact, we had bought ourselves a little house in the country with 3 acres of land, but we sold it this year. After trying the bungalow colony last year, it was such an amazing experience, we don’t need that house anymore.

My kids arent being squeezed into a tiny bungalow, because they barely step foot inside the bungalow all day. We eat our meals outside, including on shabbos when we eat without about 5 other families. They spend their days exploring, fishing, swimming, playing sports, hunting for salamanders, and building clubhouses.

No wii, and the iPads and game boys are rarely used.

This is the way life was meant to be lived. It’s he most wonderful experience in the world. I grew up with it, and I’m so glad I can give it to my kids.

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 5:02 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

I do get it, because that's the way I remember my childhood summers. Of course, this was long before the internet, so that wasn't an issue either in the city or in the Catskills, and we barely watched TV wherever we were (we were allowed literally one show a week), so that wasn't what made a difference either. But in the bungalow colony, we spent the entire day outside, hiking, biking, swimming, picking blueberries, and playing ball. We didn't go to day camp, because there was no day camp; we just all played together and figured out what to do ourselves. We did go inside for meals, but they were over quickly because we couldn't wait to go outside again. We played from morning to night, even after supper.

I'm glad there are still places like that. I got the impression that most bungalow colonies today have mandatory day camps, and once they're structuring kids' time, most of the magic goes away.

I live in a suburb right near hiking and biking trails and a regional park. There's plenty for kids to explore and do. Unfortunately, we're practically the only ones who don't send kids away to camp or at least day camp, so they have to do it alone.

Enjoy!

Seas

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 5:15 pm

amother wrote:

Interestingly enough, I once read a holocaust survivor's tale, wherein he described life in Krakow before the war (circa 450,000 Jews). Apparently Jewish society was very class-based, with rich people barely acknowledging the poor.

That had its own problems, but at least the poor never felt any peer pressure by the rich. People only conformed to their own social-status groups.

mommy3b2c

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 5:23 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Thanks! We are enjoying immensely!
https://I.imgur.com/4HmEnzS.jpg