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Forum -> Household Management -> Kosher Kitchen
Having to idiot proof my kitchen... For dh
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amother
Copper


 

Post Wed, Jul 04 2018, 10:40 am
I've posted about this before but an issue still comes up at least twice a month.

I color code literally everything possible - drying mats, silicone utensils, cutting boards, I even paid double for blue coated stainless steel pots and pans.

Dh does the dishes (he gets to them before I do) and STILL makes mistakes. A dairy spoon used to scoop out his takeout shawarma. Meat forks in the dairy drawer. Salmon cooked in meat oven, eaten on dairy dishes. Today, the dairy cutting board (the meat ones are literally red) put away on the meat side - does this mean he washed it meat??

What am I supposed to do???
Do the dishes before him - OK but it's not just that, it's every time he uses something or puts something away.

I don't care if the water isn't boiling or whatever excuse he gives me (during our frequent fights about it). I know its not all kashrus, like the salmon isn't a problem. But he's seriously screwing with my kitchen management and I don't like it. I feel like I can't trust him.

Now we are moving into a non Jewish building with ONE sink and I'm freaking out, he can barely manage with two sinks and a divider between them!
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amother
Slateblue


 

Post Wed, Jul 04 2018, 10:48 am
What does he think about it? It sounds like he either has a disability, or just doesn't care. If he doesn't care, I can't see what you can do about it. Know the halachos well so you'll know what's problematic and what's not. If he has a disability, find out where the breakdown is happening and think of a solution based on that. Is he distracted? Color blind?
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amother
Copper


 

Post Wed, Jul 04 2018, 10:53 am
he thinks I freak out too much and it's not all kashrus related and I need to chill.

he's not ADD, ADHD or anything. he does sometimes watch or listen to something while washing the dishes. but that doesn't explain when he prepares his food.

I've accused him of being clueless and begged him to tune in. (I am not perfect here but so frustrated!!! 3+ years and a good week has no incident).

he doesn't do this to laundry!! I can trust him more to wash my clothing and not screw up the hang drying than I can to keep my kitchen in order.
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octopus




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 04 2018, 10:57 am
Is he color blind?
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ra_mom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 04 2018, 11:00 am
It sounds like you have to buy glass dishes, bowls and cutting boards. I don't know how you'll deal with knife issues but maybe have only 2 meat knives which you keep hidden and use plastic for everything else.
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ShishKabob




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 04 2018, 11:13 am
It sounds like a control issue to me. He doesn't like the fact that you are freaking out about it. I would ask a Rabbi how to handle these things for the kashrus part.
Start trying not to freak out when you discover what he's done. (then implement what the Rabbi instructed to do in these scenarios) I would bite my tongue literally to have that amount of self control. Then do it again. Try to see if this lessens the amount of mistakes that happen. (keep a good record so you can see if this works) Once you give up trying to control him in your mind and in your actions, there's no point of messing up the kitchen.
I totally hear your frustration, don't get me wrong. Just the title idiot proof, insinuates some kind of a battle that doesn't necessarily have to do with Kashrus. Just my take on it. I hope I'm wrong.
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Rachel Shira




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 04 2018, 11:49 am
I remember your other post about this. I really empathize, this would drive me crazy especially since it seems like he just doesn’t care. My husband makes little mistakes but it’s because he just isn’t thinking - like he’ll use a meat fork for dairy because those are the ones we use more often.
What I would do is straightforward but it depends on how receptive he would be. I would have a conversation about how it really bothers you when the kitchen organization gets all messed up like this, and that you don’t know what to expect when you come home as far as what dishes will be washed in the wrong sink, and it’s very unsettling for you. You’ve tried colored dishes, etc. Does he have any other ideas about ways to prevent mixups? Yes, maybe it’s not always a big deal kashrus-wise, but it really bothers you and is important to you that it not happen, so can he please humor you and help think of a solution that will work. Even if he doesn’t understand why, it would really mean a lot to you if you saw that he was putting in the effort.
Etc. Your mileage may vary depending on how much he really doesn’t like that you care about this so much.
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amother
Oak


 

Post Sun, Jul 08 2018, 5:56 pm
I had the same thing with my husband. So frustrating!! In the end we had some uncomfortable discussions and agreed that he wouldn't wash the dishes ever, and would only heat stuff up after checking with me about which oven to use,I bet that sounds extreme to everyone but we mutually agreed on it and it really improved shalom bayis.
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amother
Dodgerblue


 

Post Sun, Jul 08 2018, 5:59 pm
More than anything else, This sounds like a hashkafah issue to me.
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Sun, Jul 08 2018, 6:21 pm
I would be the husband in this case. I have a hard time with organization and focus and am always messing up in the kitchen. Adding pressure wouldn’t help as it’s an area that I’m sincerely struggling with. Calling me an idiot would be detrimental and would only cause me not to care. I’d advise that you use gentle reminders and positive reinforcement so that he wants to do it to please you when he sees how happy it makes you when all is in place.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 09 2018, 3:50 am
amother wrote:
I've posted about this before but an issue still comes up at least twice a month.

I color code literally everything possible - drying mats, silicone utensils, cutting boards, I even paid double for blue coated stainless steel pots and pans.

Dh does the dishes (he gets to them before I do) and STILL makes mistakes. A dairy spoon used to scoop out his takeout shawarma. Meat forks in the dairy drawer. Salmon cooked in meat oven, eaten on dairy dishes. Today, the dairy cutting board (the meat ones are literally red) put away on the meat side - does this mean he washed it meat??

What am I supposed to do???
Do the dishes before him - OK but it's not just that, it's every time he uses something or puts something away.

I don't care if the water isn't boiling or whatever excuse he gives me (during our frequent fights about it). I know its not all kashrus, like the salmon isn't a problem. But he's seriously screwing with my kitchen management and I don't like it. I feel like I can't trust him.

Now we are moving into a non Jewish building with ONE sink and I'm freaking out, he can barely manage with two sinks and a divider between them!

First off, "non jewish building"? Really? Honey, there are places, all over the place, even where jews live, that only have ONE sink. You have just been lucky until now.

I hope you are not telling HIM that he is an idiot because that would just destroy someone's self esteem.
Second of all, maybe he has a processing disorder. Or maybe he is color blind? What does HE say when you talk about this with him?

Also, dont fight about it, that will get both of you nowhere fast. TALK about it, level headed. Tell him why this is something that bothers you to the extent that it does. And then have him repeat back to you what you said to be sure that he really understood what you were saying.
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salt




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 09 2018, 4:21 am
I have to say, most of the things that you wrote that he did do not treif up anything.
Is he very well versed in halacha, and careful not to do the real treif things? Like pour a cup of milk in your chicken soup?
Maybe relax a bit, and if you see a meat spoon in the dairy drawer, just move it back over. Only on the things that you think he may have really made something treif, ask him about.

I have made a few mistakes in the kitchen, which my husband then asked about, and none of them actually caused us to be not allowed to eat the food or use the utensils afterwards.
It's amazing how many things are actually ok.
Obviously best to be careful, but bedi'eved, all ok.
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 09 2018, 5:34 am
I think it's awesome that your husband cooks and does the dishes. I think it's less awesome that the title of this thread is "idiot-proof," as if he's a fool you have to micro-manage. I don't think that will work in your favour.

We had a similar issue in the beginning of our marriage - I wanted to divide everything, and (Sephardic, so glass/corelle is okay) husband thought I was being unreasonable... Until I pointed out that he was eating cereal with a fleishig spoon, unintentionally, or leaving his milky bowl in the fleishig sink. Eventually, he got my point, but I had to be non-confrontational about it, very honest about what is halacha and what isn't, caring, understanding, and we had to work out a system together that he also felt made sense.

When I told him what to do, it didn't work. When I explored with him how stressful I found it to have an over-simplified kitchen, and we sat down to find solutions which would make both of us feel comfortable, it was much more successful.

I hope this helps. Hatzlacha with this journey, and your new move!
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amother
Seagreen


 

Post Mon, Jul 09 2018, 6:06 am
A few people mentioned glass here. I don't understand. Can you eat hot dairy and then hot meat in a glass bowl, and it all stays kosher??
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ra_mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 09 2018, 6:49 am
amother wrote:
A few people mentioned glass here. I don't understand. Can you eat hot dairy and then hot meat in a glass bowl, and it all stays kosher??

Glass doesn't "absorb" status.
Drinking glasses may be used interchangeably.
Speak to your LOR about your issue because while it's not preferred to use glass for hot cookware or dishes interchangeably, it is much more lenient.

https://www.star-k.org/article.....lass/

"If someone poured hot milk on a cold meat glass/pyrex utensil or hot meat on a cold dairy glass/pyrex utensil, what should be done?
A: The dishes should be washed off and not used for 24 hours. The glass/pyrex utensil can then be used as it was originally designated."
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ra_mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 09 2018, 6:56 am
Read this as well.
https://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/38/Q1/
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 09 2018, 7:06 am
Simply at the maximum.
Maybe do switch to glass if your rav agrees.
It's normal for someone new or someone older to mix up.
Tell him you'd rather a phone call.
Disposable? and lock away what is harder to kosher.
My dad grew up asking before touching anything so he's a bit like that, plus age and memory. My mom does a mix of the above.
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 09 2018, 2:39 pm
amother wrote:
A few people mentioned glass here. I don't understand. Can you eat hot dairy and then hot meat in a glass bowl, and it all stays kosher??


Technically, yes.

Ashkenazim have taken upon themselves (halacha) to have separate glass for meat and milk, to ensure no confusion.

Sephardim still can use glass interchangeably lechatchilah
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goodmorning




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 09 2018, 4:38 pm
Rappel wrote:
Technically, yes.

Ashkenazim have taken upon themselves (halacha) to have separate glass for meat and milk, to ensure no confusion.

Sephardim still can use glass interchangeably lechatchilah


It's true that Ashkenazim do not use glass interchangeably for meat and milk, but the reason isn't to prevent confusion. It's because of a machlokes as to the nature of glass. R' Yosef Karo paskened according to the opinion that glass is smooth and incapable of absorbing; hence, the same glass dishes may be used for milk and meat. The Rema, however, paskened according to the opinion that not only does absorb, like metal, but it is even more severe than metal because once bli'os are absorbed, they can't be removed through the hagala kashering process (like earthenware).

For Ashkenazim, then, glass should have a more strict status than that of metal (but leniencies are sometimes employed in light of the opinions that glass either doesn't absorb or does absorb but can be purged through hagala).
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 10 2018, 5:22 am
Thank you, goodmorning, for that detailed response. I learned something today. Smile
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