Emunah Help Please

penguin

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 5:43 pm

אדון עולם אשר מלך
בטרם כל יציר נברא
לעת נעשה בחפצו כל
אזי מלך שמו נקרא.

ואחרי ככלות הכל
לבדו ימלוך נורא
והוא היה, והוא הווה
והוא יהיה בתפארה

והוא אחד ואין שני
להמשילו להחבירה.
בלי ראשית בלי תכלית
ולו העוז והמשרה.

והוא א-לי וחי גואלי
וצור חבלי בעת צרה.
והוא נסי ומנוסי
מנת כוסי ביום אקרא

amother

Goldenrod

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 6:02 pm

amother wrote:

I hear that. That's true, I like that point. I'll think about it.

Somehow I just wish there was something more satisfying, but maybe that's just something I need to work on.. though I don't know how.

There needs to be a Primary Cause to all creation. Otherwise, where do you draw the line? By definition, a creation needs to have a creator. If that creator was also created, by whom was he created?

There has to be an ultimate Creator that is not also a creation. How He exists, we cannot understand, because His Existence is a completely different form of existence than ours.

In a way, everything in this world exists inside of Him. He is the world. A deep concept, and difficult to explain.

leah233

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 6:09 pm

amother wrote:

If something can't be understood by humans, then it is fair to say that it is not logical or understandable from a human perspective. If I say hashem is full of compassion, and every single thing that happens to us is an act of compassion by hashem. This includes families perishing in house fires, children missing limbs and starving to death. And the holocaust. Does the statement that hashem is fully compassionate make logical sense to you? For me, I have to accept that we don't understand the mysterious ways of hashem. I believe the statement is true even though to my limited mind it seems illogical and doesn't make sense.

(1)Not logical and (2) not understandable from a human perspective are totally different concepts

Not logical mean something that is not reasonable and or based on good judgment

Not understandable from a human perspective means something that humans aren't smart enough and don't have enough information to understand.

Most of the universe (I'm not even talking about Hashem) falls into the latter category.

Based on the history of these type of threads this is my last post here.

amother

Black

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 6:28 pm

leah233 wrote:

Ok, you don't have to respond. I agree that the creation of the universe is not understandable from a human perspective. On the other hand certain things that are inherent frum beliefs are seemingly illogical. Like the example I gave earlier. Hashem allowing families to perish in a fire and hashem being fully compassionate is illogical. People that are older and were never able to get married or have children seems incredibly sad. Yet we would also say that everything, including this, is good and compassionate. This is illogical. As frum Jews we must believe it but it is difficult.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 7:20 pm

amother wrote:

And if it were easy it wouldn't be belief.

amother

Black

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 7:34 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

And if it were easy it wouldn't be belief.

I guess I question whether we really believe certain things or if we are just saying it like robots. For example a couple married many years and is struggling to have children. On one hand we say everything hashem does is all for the good including this. We might say that hashem is preserving their olam habba by causing them to suffer in this world. It's all part of hashems perfect plan which we believe is good and for the best......but we daven, get brochos, do 100 segulos all that......hashem reverse his plan that a minute ago I told you I believe is perfect. Does this make sense? Is the plan perfect? Then why are we crying and begging to change this perfect plan? If we're begging hashem to change the plan, it stands to reason we don't really believe the plan is perfect.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 7:44 pm

amother wrote:

Here's how I see it: We do well to fill ourselves with hashkafa and machshava so that when the going gets tough, etc.
When it comes to dealing with someone else's tzaros, I think of what I heard attributed to Rav Yisrael Salanter: when it comes to someone's lack in gashmiyus, you have to act like an apikoros, as if there's no Hashem chas v'shalom, and it's all up to us. IOW, it's not the time to say, it's the ratzon Hashem, etc., it's time to give them whatever practical chizuk you can. (Which includes davening. Davening as an effective form of hishtadlus was built into teva.)

Now, re those same tzaros, I might well, not within their hearing, start railing, Why, Hashem? Why do they deserve it? I know You're fully good, but it's hard to feel it right now.

We have to hold these opposing thoughts. Hashem is good, and everything He does is good. But we're not Chrstian scientists. We believe in making natural forms of hishtadlus, knowing when we do, that there's not cause and effect - that we did x so y happened. Since we made the effort to do x, Hashem allows y to happen. Or He may effect yeshuos from a totally different direction, but our hishtadlus still made a difference.

bigsis144

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 7:44 pm

“What came before HaShem?” is a philosophical question that doesn’t bother me at all because it’s almost tautological - it’s like asking “what existed before Existence?”

It’ll just drive you in circles because it’s ultimately not a “how” question that can be answered scientifically, but a “why” question that’s just philosophical/religious and more of a thought experiment/leap of faith than anything else.

And I am a very scientific person!

Last edited by bigsis144 on Thu, Jul 05 2018, 8:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

Mommyg8

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 7:53 pm

I didn't read through this thread, so I may be repeating, but this is what I understand:

According to our tradition, there are two things that are beyond human understanding. One is the nature of G-d, the other is what happened before the world was created. We are told that these two things are beyond our comprehension, therefore we are forbidden to delve into these topics.

I'm trying to remember the source - I think I saw this in Derech Hashem, and I just asked someone and he said it's a gemarah in the second perek of chagigah. If someone would volunteer to do the research I would be grateful, I literally took out two seconds to jot this down...

amother

Goldenrod

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 7:58 pm

amother wrote:

So many times, the reason we, or others, are in the situation is for us to daven and come close to Hashem. It's not that the tzarah is meant to be and we are trying to get out of it, it's that we are meant to try to get it of it. That's the purpose. And it's not a one size fits all. Hashem's plans are incredibly nuanced to the hairsbreadth, way beyond human comprehension. The Torah gives us the formula for how to react, and we do our hishtadlus according to that. But at the same time we have complete emunah that this is all perfectly calculated for our growth in ways we can't usually understand, because we're not G-d. And the situation can change in a split second. Nothing is beyond Him.

When Hashem reverses the plan, a minute ago, the plan was perfect for that minute. And now, the plan is perfect for this minute. And it can be a complete 180. Only Hashem can know how to create the perfect situation for each second of our lives.

Mommyg8

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 7:59 pm

amother wrote:

This doesn't make sense. The REASON that Hashem gave us these tzaros is to daven, isn't there a chazal that says that the reason the tzadikim suffered infertility (Avrohom, Yitzchok, Rochel, Chana) was because Hashem wanted them to daven?

Obviously there's a reason for everything, but of course the main reason for any suffering is to turn to Hashem to ask Him to remove the suffering. (It's like Hashem is telling us - maybe you forgot about Me, here's a little wake-up call).

And of course, tzaddik v'ra lo is beyond our complete comprehension, but we can understand parts of it. For example, a tzadik is getting his full punishment in this world so that he can have the highest gan eden, a rasha gets rewarded in this world so that when he dies he doesn't need to be rewarded anymore. A thought that I have heard is that Hashem rewards each one in their own currency Confused

. But of course, as Rabbi Miller often points out, there are plenty of tzadikim that have it tov lo as well.

amother

Purple

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 9:13 pm

I believe in black holes in space and discovery of new stars hundreds of light-years away. I believe in light-years. I believe in anthropologists' theories about previous civilizations. I believe in modern medicine. There is no logical reason I should believe in any of it. But I do. I also know that scientific theories that I was once believed because I heard them as "science" have changed over time. Doesn't bother me. I also believe in Hashem. Sometimes it is because things happen that go beyond my comprehension and nobody else can explain it to me. Sometimes it is because I need to believe in Him. Sometimes I have to look for Hashem to believe in Him. And there He is. I have had times where I've questioned. But I found it far better and palatable to accept that I can't understand everything about Hashem.

TranquilityAndPeace

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 9:22 pm

Hashem creates Time at Brias Ha'olem.

There was no before Creation, because there was no time then. So the concept of before and after we're not yet created.

We are physical creations within time, and we humans were not given the ability to think about how things work in a world devoid of time. We literally cannot begin to father it.

Thus, questions like, was Hashem bored prior to Creation, are not applicable.

We have questions in our world that are not applicable, such as: what if you are at the South Pole, and you want go farther south, where do you end up? Ovciaouly, the question is not applicable to reality, since once you travel away from the South Pole, you are going some variation of North; there's no way to go farther south.

amother

Black

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 9:31 pm

amother wrote:

What do you mean "there is no logical reason I should believe any of it"?

amother

Purple

Thu, Jul 05 2018, 9:49 pm

amother wrote:

What do you mean "there is no logical reason I should believe any of it"?

For example, this is from Wikipedia about blackholes: "A black hole is a region of spacetime exhibiting such strong gravitational effects that nothing—not even particles and electromagnetic radiation such as light—can escape from inside it.[1] The theory of general relativity predicts that a sufficiently compact mass can deform spacetime to form a black hole."

There is no way I can grasp really what these concepts mean because I'm not a physicist. Exactly what makes up a black hole then? I don't know. What is inside a black hole? Still don't know. But it seems to exist or at least I believe it does. Why do I believe? Good question.

And I also believe in Hashem.

imorethanamother

Fri, Jul 06 2018, 2:29 am

amother wrote:

I had my little cousin over at my house a while ago and she questioned "What happened before Hashem made the world? Who made Hashem?"

This had me thinking... A big source of my belief is that if we see something it has to have had a creator. Like the famous parable if we see a beautiful painting we know there's an artist behind it. It didn't just emerge from thin air. So how does this apply to Hashem? What "made" him? Following the previous logic, there'S something that must have proceeded Hashem..?

Please, please don't get this thread locked.
I am looking for answers, I want to grow. This is something that has bothered me for some time. I am sincerely asking this question, and am open to hearing different opinions and answers.

First of all, you can rest assured that many, many great people have certainly thought about this question. Rambam does say you're just not supposed to think about it, but I don't know how much that helps.

I think the most crucial thing to understand is how time is a crutch. It is a creation in itself. There were ten ma'amaros, or statements, proclaimed by Hashem for creation, and the first one is "Beraishis", or "in the beginning." Before this, there was no beginning. Time was a necessary construct to propel us forward, to be aware of a journey, to fulfill a destiny.

Similarly, space is also a construct. God created a space for us, and we are in His space. But the world is not His space. The Bais Hamikdash is actually a re-creation of creation, creating a time and a space for God, just as He created a time and a space for us.

Once you understand that God is not bound by time, and exists outside of it, you can better understand how a Creator is not bound to be created. It's hard to understand, as a fish, how animals can live outside water. So we can't understand how an entity can live outside of time. I can't give a great parable here, but in my head, it's like playing house with dollhouse-people toys - they're bound by rules I've created, and I'm outside of it.

God, for whatever reason, felt impelled to create us. THAT is a far, far better question - what prompted Him to decide to create us? And why? Chazal tell us all the time it was better for us not to have been created - surely God saw that coming. Again, time restricts our brain from understanding it. Because I keep getting stuck on the thought "how long was it before God created us? Eternity? What happened to start it?" But again, I'm stuck on time.