Emunah Help Please

amother

Azure

Fri, Jul 06 2018, 3:55 am

amother wrote:

Thanks for answering.

So that means in short the answer is that our understanding is limited and we simply cannot understand, but we need to believe that there was nothing before Hashem?

To be honest there could of been something before Hashem. There could of been a lot of things. But it doesn't really affect us now in any case.

Plonis

Fri, Jul 06 2018, 4:37 am

Creation must be definable. Hence, any aspect of creation is limited. By time, space, mass.

But the Creator is unlimited. There is no before or after, no space or emptiness, no mass.

So if you see anything with limits — color, form, shape, size, taste, smell, time, etc. you have seen a creation. And every creation must have a creator.

But an unlimited Creator just IS. There is nothing to be formed, nothing to be designed, nothing to be created.

So no, nothing could have existed "before" Hashem. Without Hashem, there is no before or after. And no, nothing could have created Hashem, because the definition of creation is to bring a definable something into existence. And Hashem is unlimited and undefinable.

amother

Sienna

Fri, Jul 06 2018, 6:10 am

This is an attempt to explain according to my best understnding. Hashem created everything, that includes all matter, energy, space and - time! Hashem is not bound by "before and after" because time itself was created by Him. Doesn't it say that for Hashem a thousand years are like a day and that He knows the end of everything in its beginning? He's outside the stream of time. All of creation is inside the stream of time and therefore has cause and effect, before and after. But there can be nothing "before" Hashem because time was created by Him.

amother

Black

Fri, Jul 06 2018, 9:04 am

I keep reading on this thread that before hashem "there was no time". What does this mean? Just because there was nothing in place to measure time doesn't equate to there not being earlier, much earlier , later or much later. In other words I'm sure a few thousand years ago the system of weight wasn't developed. Now we know that 16 ounces is a pound. That doesn't mean that thousands of years ago things were weightless. They just didn't have a good system to accurately measure weight. Same thing with distance. Now we know that 12 inches make a foot and 3 feet make a yard and 5180 (I think) yards make a mile. Thousands of years ago this measurement system hadn't been developed. Does this mean there was no distance?

amother

Sienna

Fri, Jul 06 2018, 9:38 am

amother wrote:

No, it has nothing to do with measuring time or not.
Our universe is defined by space, time, matter and energy. When there is no space, no matter and no energy, time also can't exist. I'm no expert on these matters and they are rather complicated, but according to Einstein's calculations and modern physics, the flow of time gets slowed down to a stop at the speed of light and in extreme gravity sources such as black holes. Time is a condition that depends on the physical universe and is woven into its structure. It's part of creation in other words. Hashem is not part of the universe. He created it, including the dimension called "time". Actually, as you mention distance and weight (aka space and matter/mass) - they are also functions of this universe. Inside the universe, they exist whether we measure them or not. But they don't affect Hashem. He has no "weight" or "size". He's infinite. And timeless.

amother

Sienna

Fri, Jul 06 2018, 10:03 am

I'd like to add to my above post the Jewish "dimension". In אדון עולם we find the line בלי ראשית בלי תכלית, without beginning, without end, referring to Hashem. If Hashem has no beginning, then logically there is nothing that could have existed before Him. It is also the 4th of the Rambam's 13 principles of faith
, אני מאמין באמונה שלמה, שהבורא, יתברך שמו הוא ראשון והוא אחרון.
Nothing was before Hashem. He is the first and the last. He is outside and beyond the dimension of time which He created.

amother

Forestgreen

Fri, Jul 06 2018, 10:05 am

imorethanamother wrote:

First of all, you can rest assured that many, many great people have certainly thought about this question. Rambam does say you're just not supposed to think about it, but I don't know how much that helps.

I think the most crucial thing to understand is how time is a crutch. It is a creation in itself. There were ten ma'amaros, or statements, proclaimed by Hashem for creation, and the first one is "Beraishis", or "in the beginning." Before this, there was no beginning. Time was a necessary construct to propel us forward, to be aware of a journey, to fulfill a destiny.

Similarly, space is also a construct. God created a space for us, and we are in His space. But the world is not His space. The Bais Hamikdash is actually a re-creation of creation, creating a time and a space for God, just as He created a time and a space for us.

Once you understand that God is not bound by time, and exists outside of it, you can better understand how a Creator is not bound to be created. It's hard to understand, as a fish, how animals can live outside water. So we can't understand how an entity can live outside of time. I can't give a great parable here, but in my head, it's like playing house with dollhouse-people toys - they're bound by rules I've created, and I'm outside of it.

God, for whatever reason, felt impelled to create us. THAT is a far, far better question - what prompted Him to decide to create us? And why? Chazal tell us all the time it was better for us not to have been created - surely God saw that coming. Again, time restricts our brain from understanding it. Because I keep getting stuck on the thought "how long was it before God created us? Eternity? What happened to start it?" But again, I'm stuck on time.

Ok, your first line made me feel very validated, and not like I'm some kind of heretic. Thank you so much for that.

And the rest of your post is really good. You had some very interesting points, and you explained it very well.

amother

Forestgreen

Fri, Jul 06 2018, 10:07 am

penguin wrote:

אדון עולם אשר מלך
בטרם כל יציר נברא
לעת נעשה בחפצו כל
אזי מלך שמו נקרא.

ואחרי ככלות הכל
לבדו ימלוך נורא
והוא היה, והוא הווה
והוא יהיה בתפארה

והוא אחד ואין שני
להמשילו להחבירה.
בלי ראשית בלי תכלית
ולו העוז והמשרה.

והוא א-לי וחי גואלי
וצור חבלי בעת צרה.
והוא נסי ומנוסי
מנת כוסי ביום אקרא

Thanks for posting this. I just thought into every word and I'll take a look at it more in depth. It's a great tefillah, one that's worthwhile to think about, and exactly on target about the topic at hand.

amother

Forestgreen

Fri, Jul 06 2018, 10:08 am

leah233 wrote:

(1)Not logical and (2) not understandable from a human perspective are totally different concepts

Not logical mean something that is not reasonable and or based on good judgment

Not understandable from a human perspective means something that humans aren't smart enough and don't have enough information to understand.

Most of the universe (I'm not even talking about Hashem) falls into the latter category.

Based on the history of these type of threads this is my last post here.

I'm sorry to see you leave. I really enjoyed, and thought about each one of your posts on this thread.