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S/O materialism - good or bad?
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unexpected




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 12:28 pm
We learned in school HKBH chos al mamonam shel Yisroel. Our teachers explained it as don’t waste your money on a label or run to buy new stuff when you already have more than enough.
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simba




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 12:40 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
Excellent post. I think you have hit the nail on the head. Bottom line, the issue is in trying to impress others. If I have the money, and I think a Lexus is more comfortable... but that's obviously not the point of a Lexus.


I disagree that the bottom line of the issue is if you are doing it to impress others it is wrong yet if doing it for your own comfort it is fine. There is also the concept of Kadesh Atzmicha B'mutar lecha (excuse my lack of Hebrew on this device!), which means that a Jew should strive to Sanctify themselves even in areas that are Muttar. Just because you could it does not mean you should.
There is also the concept of being "mistapek b'muat", satisfied with a little. Materialistic indulgence no matter the reason is not Torah'dik or a way to enhance ones spirituality.
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 12:45 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
Again, this is a question that I really have - posters have said that the problem is spending so much time on the buying, comparing, etc. And that the time should be used for better things. But what are those "better things" that someone should be doing? This is an honest question, because I do think that our culture does not really have any "better things" for us to do (assuming I'm not a great cook and I don't enjoy stuffing envelopes).


Open a Chumash. Play with your kids. Call a shut-in. Drive carpool for a friend who's had a baby recently. Etc etc etc.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 12:48 pm
simba wrote:
I disagree that the bottom line of the issue is if you are doing it to impress others it is wrong yet if doing it for your own comfort it is fine. There is also the concept of Kadesh Atzmicha B'mutar lecha (excuse my lack of Hebrew on this device!), which means that a Jew should strive to Sanctify themselves even in areas that are Muttar. Just because you could it does not mean you should.
There is also the concept of being "mistapek b'muat", satisfied with a little. Materialistic indulgence no matter the reason is not Torah'dik or a way to enhance ones spirituality.


So I'm back to my original question, is spending time on matching my kids in children's place outfits gashmiyus, or is it the actual money being spent?

And let's not kid ourselves, nobody I know in the United States of America is actually mistapek b'miut (with a few, very few, exceptions).
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 12:50 pm
amother wrote:
Open a Chumash. Play with your kids. Call a shut-in. Drive carpool for a friend who's had a baby recently. Etc etc etc.


And what's wrong with spending time matching up my kids? Because let's be realistic -- very few of us spend the entire day on ruchniyusdik pursuits.
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simba




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 12:53 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
So I'm back to my original question, is spending time on matching my kids in children's place outfits gashmiyus, or is it the actual money being spent?

And let's not kid ourselves, nobody I know in the United States of America is actually mistapek b'miut (with a few, very few, exceptions).


That is a question only you can answer. How much do you value and focus on these things. and how does that message get imparted to your children. How people use their time and money are usually a good indication of what they value. You do the math. What do you choose to focus on?
If someone spends time doing Chessed and their extra money and Tzedaka it is a clear indication what they value.
If someone spends hours browsing Saks Fifth Avenue and spends excessively there we also see a bit about what is important to them.

Muat - is very relative. Everyone can decide that they dont need that extra pair of shoes, or 13th lipstick because it is just not necessary. For that person that is Muat.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 12:55 pm
Shvil Hazahav: moderation in all things. Neither asceticism (the Essene -tial mistake) nor overindulgence. Even a king is commanded not to acquire a surfeit of horses, gold, or wives.
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amother
Ruby


 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 12:58 pm
Open any mussar sefer, you'll find plenty of sources on histapkus and what's wrong with materialism. Mesillas Yesharim, Rav Dessler, etc.
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amother
Lemon


 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 1:02 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
So there are two questions here.

What do you consider materialism? Is it buying your children matching outfits in Old Navy or Children's Place or is it spending a lot of money on high end clothing?

Again, if I wouldn't be spending my time buying clothing, what would I be spending my time doing?

For those that say that they don't spend time on clothing, but they do spend time watching TV, movies or whatever - How is that better?



I think you're mixing a few things up here. First of all which big rabbi or rebetzin spends tons of money on themselves? On brand name clothing, luxury cars, mansions, vacation houses etc? I don't think any of them do.
Having a bathroom inside the house and hot water to shower isn't a luxury unless you grew up somewhere in Africa.
If you had that standard of living in the US, Europe , Australia or any first world country you would be considered extremely poor. Noone is supposed to live that way. There are statistics in each country with the definition of poverty. You can look it up for wherever you live if you're confused as to what life above the poverty line means.

Also noone is perfect. We all waste our time, either on here, shopping etc. That doesn't make it right. Yes you can go Rob a bank and then say "hey but he murdered someone". Doesn't mean robbing a bank isn't wrong.
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simba




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 1:04 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
And what's wrong with spending time matching up my kids? Because let's be realistic -- very few of us spend the entire day on ruchniyusdik pursuits.


Nothing wrong as long as it's in moderation.
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Simple1




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 1:04 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
And what's wrong with spending time matching up my kids? Because let's be realistic -- very few of us spend the entire day on ruchniyusdik pursuits.


None of us are perfect. We are not tzadikim. We so our best. But if something becomes a community standard, then it is more of a problem and can give our kids a confused value system.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 1:07 pm
amother wrote:
Open any mussar sefer, you'll find plenty of sources on histapkus and what's wrong with materialism. Mesillas Yesharim, Rav Dessler, etc.


I read all the mussar seforim. That's why I'm asking for sources - maybe somebody saw something I didn't see.

As for perishus, Rabbi Miller quoted the Alter from Slabodka that this is not relevant for regular people. There are yechidim who are perhaps on that level, but they are true yechidim.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 1:09 pm
zaq wrote:
Shvil Hazahav: moderation in all things. Neither asceticism (the Essene -tial mistake) nor overindulgence. Even a king is commanded not to acquire a surfeit of horses, gold, or wives.


True. So who decides what is moderation? Because you have to admit that the standard nowadays is just not the same that it used to be.
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amother
Ruby


 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 1:14 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
I read all the mussar seforim. That's why I'm asking for sources - maybe somebody saw something I didn't see.

As for perishus, Rabbi Miller quoted the Alter from Slabodka that this is not relevant for regular people. There are yechidim who are perhaps on that level, but they are true yechidim.


There's an entire CHAPTER in Mesillas Yesharim on prishus. The 4th one.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 1:17 pm
simba wrote:
That is a question only you can answer. How much do you value and focus on these things. and how does that message get imparted to your children. How people use their time and money are usually a good indication of what they value. You do the math. What do you choose to focus on?
If someone spends time doing Chessed and their extra money and Tzedaka it is a clear indication what they value.
If someone spends hours browsing Saks Fifth Avenue and spends excessively there we also see a bit about what is important to them.

Muat - is very relative. Everyone can decide that they dont need that extra pair of shoes, or 13th lipstick because it is just not necessary. For that person that is Muat.


I wasn't asking for myself. My kids are older and they no longer match (unless you count white shirts as matching Wink ).

I started this thread as a spin-off of a thread wondering how certain RW communities focus so much on externals. So I was wondering why that would be a bad thing (if it's true)? Is it terrible for women to be well dressed, with nice make up and shaitels, and for the kids to wear matching Children's Place outfits?

I was also wondering, to be honest, about the focus of different communities. In some communities (not mine), a good quality dining room set and a crystal chandelier is essential for a choson and Kallah, in other communities not so much. Are these communities (where it's the standard) doing the wrong thing? Is nice furniture and nice clothing a wrong thing in and of itself? On the other thread there seems to be a judgment that this is bad, so I was just questioning that assumption?
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simcha2




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 1:19 pm
I believe you can tell a lot about someone if you look how they spend their money and how they spend their time.

Shiviti Hashem l'negdi tamid.

I believe placing Hashem in front of you always is one of the ways we define ourselves as frum Jews.

If you are spending more time thinking about and choosing your accessories in the morning than you are davening you are not acting in a frum manner.

If you are giving your children the message, either explicitly or subconsciously that we judge people on the way they are dressed and on their possessions you are not acting in a frum manner. If you call someone, (or think it) that someone is a "neb" because of their clothing you are not acting as a frum Jew.

We, thank Hashem, have a nice parnassa. I don't think it's tznius to spend excessively. (I drive a 12 year old car, dh a nine year old car). As a frum Jew I choose to spend that money on tzedaka.

We choose to By place Hashem at the forefront on our decisions regarding time and money.

That doesn't mean that we never spend money on going out, or never watch a movie. It means we try to live a life that focuses on Hashem first.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 1:19 pm
amother wrote:
There's an entire CHAPTER in Mesillas Yesharim on prishus. The 4th one.


Exactly. Like I said, the ones who focused on mussar (Slabodka) have said that perishus is not relevant for today (this was said 100 years ago). I said this in my earlier post. And it doesn't seem as if Chassidim are reading this ant differently....
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amother
Blush


 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 1:19 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
I read all the mussar seforim. That's why I'm asking for sources - maybe somebody saw something I didn't see.

As for perishus, Rabbi Miller quoted the Alter from Slabodka that this is not relevant for regular people. There are yechidim who are perhaps on that level, but they are true yechidim.


How could you have read michtav mEliyahu and missed the major discussion on materialism?
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simba




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 1:25 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
Exactly. Like I said, the ones who focused on mussar (Slabodka) have said that perishus is not relevant for today (this was said 100 years ago). I said this in my earlier post. And it doesn't seem as if Chassidim are reading this ant differently....


There is a large gap between Prishus and the materialistic standards in today's frum community.
Prishus is davening for hours in the forest and walking barefoot. Spending a small fortune on Italian shoes and designer dresses for your kids for YT is very normal in my neck of the woods.
There has to be something in the middle.
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amother
Ruby


 

Post Wed, Jul 18 2018, 1:25 pm
Mommyg8 wrote:
Exactly. Like I said, the ones who focused on mussar (Slabodka) have said that perishus is not relevant for today (this was said 100 years ago). I said this in my earlier post. And it doesn't seem as if Chassidim are reading this ant differently....

What?! Slabodka is not the only mussar school. And I highly doubt anyone from Slabodka said the entire 4th chapter of Mesillas Yesharim is irrelevent today. Please bring a quote, because this sounds remarkably outlandish to me.
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