S/O materialism - good or bad?

amother

Lemon

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 1:44 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I wasn't asking for myself. My kids are older and they no longer match (unless you count white shirts as matching Wink

).

I started this thread as a spin-off of a thread wondering how certain RW communities focus so much on externals. So I was wondering why that would be a bad thing (if it's true)? Is it terrible for women to be well dressed, with nice make up and shaitels, and for the kids to wear matching Children's Place outfits?

I was also wondering, to be honest, about the focus of different communities. In some communities (not mine), a good quality dining room set and a crystal chandelier is essential for a choson and Kallah, in other communities not so much. Are these communities (where it's the standard) doing the wrong thing? Is nice furniture and nice clothing a wrong thing in and of itself? On the other thread there seems to be a judgment that this is bad, so I was just questioning that assumption?

It's wonderful when people take care of their looks. It's definitely NOT wonderful when comments like this happen more than once: " why would you wear that, that's so last season!!"
Excuse me, I'm not a billionaire .. I have clothes that are 10 years old. I'll wear them as long as they look nice.

amother

Blush

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 1:49 pm

amother wrote:

What?! Slabodka is not the only mussar school. And I highly doubt anyone from Slabodka said the entire 4th chapter of Mesillas Yesharim is irrelevent today. Please bring a quote, because this sounds remarkably outlandish to me.

Yes, I think you are confused. Rav Dessler is specifically discussing the pursuit of material "stuff." Not sleeping on a cold, hard floor and eating pas bmelach.

Anyway, as someone mentioned earlier, this is a mitzvah doreisa: kedoshim thiyu. The Ramban talks about being a naval brshus hatorah and indulging in that which is technically not assur. I doubt the chachamim would argue that today's obsession over clothing, lavish homes, jewelry and others don't fall under this mitzvah.

amother

Olive

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 2:23 pm

Too much materialism stands in the way of allowing us to fulfil the dictum of ‘serving HaShem with joy’.

It's pretty obvious, that the more you have, the less gratitude and ultimately they less joy. In my own small apartment I find countless things every day to be grateful for. I know the minute I buy that house I will be wanting improvements and renovations constantly. This is actually keeping me back from making that leap.

Take vacation for example, some of kids friends have been to every country in Europe and are never satisfied. We take our kids to local ‘nature’ parks and teach them to value the beauty of a lake, a waterfall, a mountain… this world is just a through-road, HaShem could have made it as dreary as the factory I work in and yet in His kindness He chose to make it the beautiful place it is.

I honestly think the more you have, the less joy! There is so much beauty in simplicity.

This is not to say you should wear rags and eat black bread. We are the ambassadors of G-d and we should dress and behave with dignity. But this does not (and cannot) translate into excess.

livinginflatbus

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 3:25 pm

simba wrote:

I would venture to say we have taken it to far. Bread and water was the way many tzaddikim lived. I don't believe that is expected from us today.
I believe if one has the means they should enjoy comforts.

Today the materialistic standards are so high that it itself is its own religion. And there is no space for true connection to Hashem there.

What's kids see as preparation for Yom Tov is mommy stressing over matching bows and tights for everyone. Is mommy stressing to have magazine worthy food for the guests that are coming. Is Tatty paying someone to assemble a pre-gab Sukkah. Oh- the stress of Chol Hamoed outfits!
Did we forget to talk to our kids about Yom Tov, about how Mommy loves sitting in the beautifully decorated Sukkah, Zeidy used to sing songs and the excitement and love for Torah and this beautiful opportunity to sit completely sorounded by a Mitzvah.
Yes, kids should look nice and have new clothes for Yom Tov and yes the food should be plenty and delicious. Yet, where is our focus and what message are we imparting to our children with that focus.

I see girls dressed so beautifully and Tznius. They look fancier on Sunday 9am then I looked at my wedding. Yes, they should have nice clothes, makeup is fine. Do they need ferragamo shoes and Burberry cardigans.. no! It's not the way of Torah. It's a high level of materialistic indulgence that takes away from ones ability to have spiritual receptors.

Excellent post simba

Ruchel

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 3:25 pm

In the following generation, leaders of the Musar movement included Zissel's student Nosson Tzvi Finkel of Slobodka, and Rabbi Yosef Yozel Horwitz of Novaradok. The schools founded by these two men became the largest and most influential schools of Musar. The Slobodka school founded by Finkel became especially influential, but the Novaradok school also gained a significant following. Louis Jacobs has described the difference between these two schools as follows:

In Slabodka they taught: man is so great, how can he sin? In Navaradok they taught: man is so small, how dare he sin? [8]

Wink

Reducing mussar to Slobodka seems to fit the quote. Wink

http://thejewishlink.com/hagao.....iyahu
I had the honour to meet rabbi Chaim and rebbetzin Micheline. I went for a bracha while pregnant and he stood for me (he had to be like 90) and said I was just as able to give myself a bracha. That's Novarodk (I did get the bracha).

amother

Taupe

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 3:33 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

But let's say I do all that? I cook meals for families, I volunteer for Chesed organizations, and I work besides? And I also happen to live nicely? Why is that an automatically wrong thing to do?

IMHO - no - I don't think thats a normative Jewish position - though I'm sure over the years there have been those who have held that way.

There is a lovely Shaker hymn about simplicity - its lovely - but doesn't 'feel' Jewish

'Tis the gift to be simple, 'tis the gift to be free
'Tis the gift to come down where we ought to be,
And when we find ourselves in the place just right,
'Twill be in the valley of love and delight.
When true simplicity is gained,
To bow and to bend we shan't be ashamed,
To turn, turn will be our delight,
Till by turning, turning we come 'round right.

amother

Pumpkin

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 3:36 pm

Op I completely disagree with how you lumped having appliances with dressing kids up fancy/nice expensive clothes??

I think owning a house with appliances and having takeout, cleaning help ...are in the category of helping women manage and we dont live like they lived previously without washing machines ... the examples I gave above are not necessarily materialism but help a woman fulfill her duties as a wife and mom.

But focusing too much on the latest styles/brand names of clothes or newest head covering ....this is materialism bec it becomes our focus and we start to treat others who dress "down" as nebs. How did this term come about if not for the focus on materialism/clothes/outer appearances?? People are not usually talking about the nice kind woman who did chesed but are talking about their newest remodeling or who bought their kids the newest style/brand name.....

I also think it is different if a woman is stressing nice with a nice sheitel( without running out"" to get the newest sheitel/clothes every 6 months) than if a woman dresses her kids with all the latest styles and brand names. I think as women, many of us dress up for ourselves to feel good(again, if we are always getting the newest things, that becomes the focus which is not toradik).

However, when kids see their parents running to get the brand names and newest styles....then the kids are getting the message this is what is important in life. If a parent only did this for shabbos or yom tov, then the kids will learn to honor shabbos/yom tov but so many ppl are dressing up for sunday and regular weekdays, then the focus is materialism only and not spiritual at all.

Personally, I dont care if rich ppl spend their money on anything as long as it doesnt become the focus but I know rich ppl who dont treat me bad for being what others call a "neb" because they didnt let materialism become their focus. Then I know plenty others who are not rich but dress fancy bec they know how to find good clothes on sale BUT THEY TREAT ME AS A NEB bec they let clothing /materialism become their focus. Why would I think a frum jew would treat me like garbage only bec of my clothes?? I do a lot of chesed but they judge me for my external...

The issue of spending too much time looking for the newest clothes/accessories....is a separate issue THE ISSUE OF SPENDING ONE'S TIME WISELY. Some ppl spend time watching tv/movies while others exercise do chesed learn torah go to shiurim go skating etc This is a completely different issue than materialism. But, to the women who said what should we do instead of spending time buying clothes??? Wow!! I couldnt believe some women have so much free time and dont know other things to do besides shopping for the latest clothes or watching the tv /movies.

There are so many other things to do like exercise, spending more time with your kids/dh, helping someone who is sick by taking their kids out, visiting elderly ppl who may be lonely, going to shiurim, taking a course online or actual going to the class,
Im so busy that I wish I had all this free time. Really, what did you do with your time before you spent all this time shopping for these clothes???

allthingsblue

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 3:48 pm

Mommyg8, do you really not see a difference between a nice wedding furniture package that retails between $3-7000, and includes bedroom and dining furniture, which is certainly a luxury but a common one and a useful one, and a custom made, Italian imported set that costs $20,000+?
Do you really not see a difference between a new Sienna, Avalon, or Chevy Tahoe, vs a new Lexus, Mercedes or Escalade?
Do you not see a difference between 3 or 4 quality pairs of expensive but classic shoes vs 30+ pairs of designer heels and flats at $500+ a pair?

The Answer to your question is that there is no answer. Each woman and man must decide for him or herself what is considered within reason vs ostentatious.

each person must compare the amount of money spent on oneself vs the amount given to tzedokah.

Jeanette

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 4:25 pm

Some people have a knack for looking nice, making their kids look nice, maintaining their homes, etc, without spending much money. They know how to spend what they have wisely.

I know someone like this who definitely has less money and lives more simply than I do, but her home looks much nicer than mine (and ours is a lot bigger than hers). Even if I had a million dollars my house wouldn't look like that because I'd have no clue how to do.it. I'd have to hire someone, and then it would be their taste, not mine.

I recently was at a nephew's bar mitzvah that I thought was over the top. But I was talking to his mother later and they really didn't spend more than a typical bar mitzvah. They just had a few creative ideas to make it look "wow."

My point is that it isn't about money. Some people are just more talented in managing their gashmius than others.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 4:46 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

In a recent thread, many expressed surprise that certain RW communities seem to have a high level of gashmiyus. Many posters have implied, or outright said, that having a lower material standard is a good thing.

I question that assumption. Is it a bad thing to live nicely? Is it a bad thing to have nice homes, nice clothing, or better appliances? Isn't Judaism about using gashmiyus for ruchniyus? Our ideal is not the ascetic who never gets married and lives in a hut, but someone who gets married, has children, and lives in a regular home with all the noise and mess and of course, furniture and appliances that that entails?

Further, if you somehow convince me that it is a Jewish value to live simply (which I'm not yet convinced), can anyone living in a first world country in 2018 tell me that they actually do live that way? Anyone here have dirt floors, an outhouse, an icebox for refrigeration? It seems to me that many who say others have a high level of materialism actually have many of their own places where they will spend money...

This is not an imamother bash as I have heard this numerous times IRL as well. And I didn't understand it any better then either.

I'm sure somebody said this already but I just discovered this thread and I comment as I go along.
The Chofetz Chaim and his furniture....no one expects or is expected to live this way. (Unless they're getting tuition assistance Twisted Evil

)

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 4:46 pm

amother wrote:

It's nice to live in comfort. It's not nice to live ostentatiously. It's nice to enjoy your life. It's not nice to be perpetually searching for the best, newest, trendiest, things.

Materialism is subjective. I would say that all of us live better than kings and queens did through most of human history.

The question is, what occupies your thoughts? What are your priorities? No one but you can answer that. A person can live in a palace and be primarily occupied with Torah, or live in a tiny apartment and be obsessed with stuff.

In a perfect world, this wouldn't depend on the community in which you live. It would depend on your values.

Why are you am other for this great post?

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 4:51 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Thanks for responding. As for your posuk, I have heard it translated that it means "you should be willing to live that way if necessary" not that it's a must. And if my husband and I are both working, where does that leave us?

As for your last paragraph - you say that externals are a distraction from our true purpose on earth. How? What IS our true purpose on earth? If I wouldn't be spending the extra time buying my kids clothing what would I be doing instead?

If you have access to old Light anthologies, one has a story by Zvi Zobin about a man buying a more expensive tie than a cheaper option, and some malach or the like explaining to him that now he would need to work that much longer instead of spending the time learning.

Not that I say that's how it works, and I doubt the author meant it either, but he likely did want to say that when one gets used to a higher standard, one is going to have make more money. (Note: I really don't remember the story beyond this.)

And re what would you be doing instead? Saying more Tehillim, of course! Tongue Out

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 4:57 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

The link you referenced is actually saying the opposite, in many cases. For example, in order to be a navi or a shofet they had to be wealthy. And materialism sometimes refers to emotional needs or rather wants - kovod, etc. So when someone is running after kovod- the prestigious job or whatever - this is considered materialism.

Think of Rebi, Torah ugedulah b'makom echad and what he said on his deathbed.
Maybe the point is that they're setting the bar? And that if we can't handle wealth that way, don't go overboard in pursuing money.
And of course, shoftim needed not to be struggling financially so as not to be susceptible to shochad.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 4:59 pm

simba wrote:

I disagree that the bottom line of the issue is if you are doing it to impress others it is wrong yet if doing it for your own comfort it is fine. There is also the concept of Kadesh Atzmicha B'mutar lecha (excuse my lack of Hebrew on this device!), which means that a Jew should strive to Sanctify themselves even in areas that are Muttar. Just because you could it does not mean you should.
There is also the concept of being "mistapek b'muat", satisfied with a little. Materialistic indulgence no matter the reason is not Torah'dik or a way to enhance ones spirituality.

And how far down the road is "naval birshus haTorah?"

SixOfWands

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 5:18 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

mommyg8 wrote:

And what's wrong with spending time matching up my kids? Because let's be realistic -- very few of us spend the entire day on ruchniyusdik pursuits.

The question is, how excessive is the time? And is it at the expense of other things, like erev yom tov and getting that hairband will lead to pressure?

I often write how conflicted I am about the time I spend on line, time I could use in other ways. I think if I were dressing my kids now, I'd probably do soul-searching on the time spent on matching too.

I actually think its a more difficult question than that.

Everything in moderation. Including moderation.

If mommyg8 gets great enjoyment out of seeing her kids matched up like the Von Trapps in The Sound of Music, why is that deserving of a moral judgment ("good" or "bad').

Why is that any different from buying new clothes for Shabbat if they're all different? I mean. either way, its clothing -- whether Miri and Malka and Michal all match or not.

Now, if you tell me that MommyNotSoGr8 forces her 17 year old daughter to wear pinafores and bows, to match the 2 year old, and throws out every outfit if one kid stains hers, then maybe there's an issue going on. (And if she's forcing her 17 year old son to wear it, well ....)

The fact is that few of us live at subsistence, and most of us have something that we indulge in. What right do we have to judge people because they choose something different than we do.

red sea

Wed, Jul 18 2018, 5:32 pm

When people become afflicted with which labels and being just the same as the joneses as far as what to wear, drive, fix, go to etc. So they should feel like everyone else, it is an insatiable addictive driven no end in sight keeps getting higher as the standard is raised vicious loop. It is because they are looking outside of themselves to see what they should or want to do that they become trapped. Living simply doesn't mean dirt floor. It means looking inward and being satisfied with what YOU feel is enough. It brings peace, and the ability to focus on the spiritual.

People of all income brackets can qualify for either of the two mindsets. Anyhow, that's my opinion on this.