S/O Saying Tehillim for people

amother

Vermilion

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 4:19 pm

I honestly don't understand these mass emails and texts and instagram posts asking people to say tehillim for strangers. Here's why:

1) You never get follow up. Is it for that minute? For the next three months? Two years?

2) Does anyone really have kavanah for this stranger? I mean, maybe you do. But does it really help anything? I don't want "Sure it helps! Every bit helps!" I mean, show me the source. Personally, I never see that it helps. At all. Even for my personal requests for refuos.

3) I don't understand how saying a kapitl that talks about King David fighting his enemies is somehow going to cure this particular person.

Ditto the 15 minutes early for Shabbos. If anyone knows the original psak by the Chofetz Chaim, you'd know it was for a particular case of an ONLY child for that particular family.

Help.

allthingsblue

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 4:32 pm

I say tehillim for strangers, and if I get details (such as a young child in an accident, a father of three who is sick, a lady who was stabbed...) I try to conjure an image of what the victim/patient/family is going through and then say Tehillim. It certainly is coming from the heart. I don't do this every time, but I try.
Especially if it's someone my age, my husband's age, my children's age, etc, I can really sympathize.

amother

Dodgerblue

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 4:39 pm

I don't think it can be proven statistically that tehilim helps. Meaning, are the people on the tehilim list living longer than the people that are not on the tehilim list. Maybe tehilim is good for their neshama, but if your looking for a measurable, tangible benefit, I'm not sure you will find it. I'd like to hear what others say about this. Hopefully I'm mistaken.

happyone

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 4:43 pm

Going to disagree with OP and dodgerblue. Every bit of tehillim goes somewhere. Miracles have happened where doctors and professionals have given up hope. Us Yidden believe in the power of prayer. Sometimes when you dont see the outcome you would like to see, doesn't mean your teffilos weren't answered. It means it was best for the situation and bigger picture we aren't privy to.

chicco

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 4:49 pm

OP I totally get your question about davening for others. I have a hard time doing this for strangers, not because I don't care, but because it is a struggle to be very heartfelt and sincere and pour out your heart for someone you don't know. I'm amazed by those that do it so effortlessly.

As far as Tehillim themselves go, I think they are largely misunderstood. They are extremely powerful and really should be said all of the time as a preventative measure. The Chida said that if people understood how powerful Tehillim are, they would never stop saying them. Also, what David Hamelech, and others, wrote in Tehillim was never about the subject (ie war...) but the feelings being experienced at the time and the relationship with Hashem, which are universal.

amother

Dodgerblue

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 4:57 pm

happyone wrote:

I agree that us yidden believe in the power us prayer. Every tefila is valuable and goes somewhere. To phrase it a different way, is tehilim something we understand and can clearly see as an effective practical tool that is used to reverse a bad g'zar, or is tehilim something that we believe in, but not understood? If there are 2 very sick patients who have both given 6 months to live. One person is a complete non believer and nobody is davening for him/her. The other person has thousands of people saying tehilim on their behalf. Let's also say they are both in a coma so their is no placebo effect. Will one patient outlive the other?

SixOfWands

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 4:59 pm

amother wrote:

Actually, there was a study showing that prayer doubled the success rate of IVF.

https://www.newscientist.com/a.....rate/

Its apparently been withdrawn. See, eg, https://www.quackwatch.org/11I......html But who knows?

Honestly, none of us know if prayer ever works. I can't be positive that there is a deity who cares that I'm not eating meat this week, or that I don't watch TV on Shabbat. But I think it does. Maybe because I want to not be helpless. I guess that's the best I can do.

chicco

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 5:06 pm

amother wrote:

Our tefillos can't guarantee any specific outcome, other than gathering zechuyos for ourselves and others. I can't tell you that in your scenario the patient who is a believer with people davening will live, but he is certainly gaining much more than the other one.

naturalmom5

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 5:18 pm

amother wrote:

All I will say is that if it is between R Mattisyahu Solomon, lhavdil bain chaim lchaim
The Manchester R. Yeshiva The Chofetz Chaim and many other tzadikim vs a random lady on the internet I know who to listen to

Just be honest you don't like being bothered by emails and texts..

Debbie

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 5:23 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

Personally I don't have a problem getting a text asking me to daven for someone,but I do like to be updated.
Some years ago I got a text asking me to daven for someone who was apparently at death's door,no updates until around a year later when exactly the same text went around again.
I had absolutely no idea if the person still required our Tefillos or not,and sometimes these requests come from no reply numbers.

amother

Vermilion

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 5:33 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

That's kinda mean. I'm not "bothered" by emails and texts.

I think it's the principal of it. If Hashem gives someone a nisayon, then obviously the point is for the people directly experiencing this issue should pray and it's an opportunity to build a relationship with Hashem. Easier said than done, sure.

However, if someone is going through some kind of tzar, and their response is to ask the community at large to pray for a random person - and most often, the details are omitted to protect the privacy of the family - then what, exactly, is the point? I mean, it costs me nothing to stop what I'm doing and say Kuf-Lamed, but I always motor through and and think, "Is Hashem saying, "WOW! I was going to have this person die, but now that Imamother Over here said something for two seconds, I'm having some serious doubts!"

In other words, while Klal Yisroel is a whole, it still seems like the point has been completely missed?

I'd very much like to hear what The Chofetz Chaim, R Mattisyahu Solomon, etc, have to say about someone like me - Random Lady On The Internet, completely Not A Tzadekes - saying tehillim for a random person I don't know. For them, just them saying anything makes a difference. So it's not quite the same.

amother

Dodgerblue

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 5:33 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

Of course these rabbanim as well as all others advocate saying tehilim. That's not the debate at hand. The question is whether tehilim creates a tangible difference in this world that is obvious and can be plainly seen or are the benefits of tehilim for the neshama only.

amother

Vermilion

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 5:36 pm

chicco wrote:

Thank you. I liked this. I will say that I don't understand Tehillim HaChida either, because in that respect, the entire tehillim is moved around and the "feelings" per each tehillim are now further diluted. But the fact that the Chida says such a thing is comforting. It feels like my prayers are lost - probably because I'm not a tzadik, as other Imamother commenters agree. :-)

naturalmom5

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 8:02 pm

Debbie wrote:

Having had sick parents, relatives, and other matzavim, I can say that often you have a million other pressing things going on and its not always possible to give constant updates.

When I dav for a name, and didn't hear a status for more than 2 weeks I just think for a second, by shemona esra, Hashem if this yeed still needs a yeshua, please send it

naturalmom5

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 8:13 pm

amother wrote:

What comes to mind is, during the 70s and 80s, at the height of the kiruv revolution, when I was becoming frum along with thousands of others, I hear in shiur many times, that in the 30s and 40s , most of clall yisroel were leaving Yiddishkeit in droves in America and EY. The mothers and grandchildren of these children cried their eyes out and said tehillim by licht benshin.. Many said, why its no use , whats the point..

The Chazon Ish said, if those tears aren't used now, they will help a future generation..
Suddenly there was a massive wave of baali tshuvos in the 70s/80s. Many gedolim said, the Chazon Ish meant that in his time, things were so chaotic, nothing could be done , but all the tehillim and years brought the grandchildren back

soap suds

Thu, Jul 19 2018, 8:17 pm

amother wrote:

Both from this post and the op it seems like your question is about saying tehillim altogether, not just for strangers. Do you feel that Hashem is going to change his mind when you say tehillim for someone you know rather than when you say it for a stranger? What's the difference?

And yes, I do think Hashem is going to say "Wow! She's going out of her way for someone she doesn't know." Of course it would be an added zchus for them.