S/O Is everything illegal bad to do?

Log in / Sign Up

List of Forums + New Post Recipe Box Usergroups Following My Posts Bookmarks

Private Messages Advanced Search Rules New User Guide FAQ Advertise Contact Us

Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

1 2 Next

View latest: 24h 48h 72h

LovesHashem

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 4:15 am

This is a spin-off of paying dues at a illegal shul. The OP said she's against anything illegal.
While I can understand being against illegal things that harm others or the government, such as working illegally, building illegally, taxes, etc...

Backyard camps? So a 15 and 16 year old cannot make a backyard camp?
Do you think a 5 year old selling lemonade should get a permit for her "Stand"? Well there goes my childhood.

I'm sure other things can fit into this category, of things that are technically illegal...but done.
Do you really think we should not be doing anything that is not 150 percent in the line of the law?

I mean, I know in Israel, putting up flyers and papers around on trees and bus stops is technically illegal. But yet most people use it to advertise cheaply. I only know 2 people hit with fines for putting up papers...so there is a risk of getting hit with a fine.
But would you honestly NEVER put up a paper or a flyer anywhere and are appalled one would do so?

I'm just curious...
Discuss below.

amother

Khaki

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 4:47 am

Just because something is illegal doesn't make it morally wrong, in the same way that something can be morally wrong even if it's legal.

However, we are commanded by Chazal to obey the law of the land. So we should.

If a law doesn't make sense to you, nothing prevents you (I assume you live in Israel, which is a democracy) from working to change the law. You can vote for candidates who share your views.

amother

Ruby

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 5:03 am

Do you also never drive 2 miles over the speed limit?

I think there is a concept that if everyone "treads on" the law, Dina Demalchusa Dina does not forbid it. Although in a case where it would lead to Chillul Hashem, it would obviously be asur.

amother

Papaya

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 7:48 am

Yeah that thread was bugging me. Come on. Backyard camps and babysitting and lemonade stands and the list goes on and on. If its not dangerous, please, just let it lie.

If the OP of the other thread is reading this, im curious (my hsuband is a repairman)
Are you extra careful to pay tax when your hiaandyman/plumber/electrician comes to fix a small problem? When he gives you an original quote, and at the end of the job tallies up the exact cost, do you make sure you've paid your tax?

Simple1

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 8:06 am

I heard that even for big legal businesses sometimes laws are so complex that it's very hard to not be in violation.

Obviously you use common sense and not do something BLATANTLY illegal. And nothing dangerous. And nothing that hurts people like stealing or fraud. But goody goodies need to save their outrage for real crimes.

SuperWify

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 8:30 am

I bet everyone single person in this planet did something illegal.

The top of my head-

- hired a unlicensed babysitter or cleaning help
- did not put seven year old in a booster seat in the car
- bought a cookie at a lemonade stand
- bought a dress off of someone
- rented a pool from their neighbors for an hour
- forgot to report a cash job they once did
- made a sukkah without a permit (true story- a guy in Jackson was fined for making his sukkah)

I can go on and on....

ROFL

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 8:36 am

I think the main issues in the other post was the fact of being forced by a Bais Din to pay memebrship dues
Otherwise her husband already participated in an “House minyan” now that they are being forced to pay the situation is different.

anon for this

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 9:02 am

SuperWify wrote:

I agree that most of us have run afoul of some ordinance or another. But most of your examples aren't illegal.

I've never heard of babysitters or housekeepers needing a license.

In NJ, a 7 year old who weighs more than 80 lbs doesn't need to be in a booster. But a 7-year old under 80 lbs must be in a booster.

While running a lemonade stand without a permit may be illegal, I don't think buying from one is. Same for swimming pools--in many jurisdictions, one needs a license and inspections from the DOH to rent out one's pool, but I don't think people who pay to use an unlicensed pool are liable.

Why wouldn't you be allowed to buy a dress from someone? Do you mean an unlicensed business? If so, while the seller may be breaking the law, the buyer isn't.

Not all jurisdictions require a permit to build a sukkah. It's more likely to be an issue with an HOA than with a city or municipality, but that's just because of how HOAs are.

LovesHashem

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 9:03 am

ROFL wrote:

Was clearly not JUST that, she put a clear emphasis on anything illegal.

amother

Seagreen

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 9:15 am

What if halacha disagrees? eg in some countries it is illegal to do bris milah, or do an abortion even in cases halacha would mandate one.

I think taxes are very hard to be 100% straight on. Cleaning ladies - different countries have different laws. If you hire the same person more then a certain number of hours, you may be liable to pay taxes and other things (social security), depending on the country. Hiring someone you know is not a legal immigrant is a different story.

amother

cornflower

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 9:20 am

side topic- with regards to booster seats- please keep your child in one as long as they physically need one. My dd is already 8 and she's big for her age- weight and height but when we had her sit in the car without a booster seat it was evident that she needed the booster seat to be positioned properly. A lot has to do with height.

amother

Bisque

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 9:23 am

Civil disobedience to protest unjust laws has its place. General disregard for the law does not.

amother

Magenta

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 10:08 am

amother wrote:

I could be wrong but my understanding is that if a repairman does a job in my house and charges me $100, that's income for him and he is required to pay tax on the cash I give him. I don't think the one paying has any obligation because it's possible the $100 already included tax.

flowerpower

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 10:30 am

amother wrote:

My plumber always charges tax.

Chayalle

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 10:42 am

Re the other thread, I don't see how it's morally/halachically right to force anyone to daven - and pay membership - to a shul just because he lives within the vicinity. I live in an area with several shuls, and some people walk further to daven in a shul they prefer...everyone can daven where they choose.

OTOH I honestly felt that the OP in that thread has a personal goat in the whole issue, and that's her own stand on other people's legal/non-legal choices. I got that feeling when she brought the neighbor's swimming pool into the issue.

I'm not one to say that people should break the law where they live. OTOH I don't have such strong personal feelings about other people's choices, if they aren't bothering me or personally hurting anyone in a big way.

I have a friend who is yeshivish, husband is a Rebbe (though I don't know why that had to be mentioned as it has nothing to do with pool ownership, I know people not yeshivish, not in Kollel, with same) who happened to buy a house that came with a pool (do you know, that can be a plus or not. Some wouldn't want the liability of a pool - myself included!). Pools are VERY expensive to open and maintain, so she allows neighborhood children to come swim for a price, which pays for the lifeguard and contributes to the pool maintenance. She doesn't make money on it, but she does sort of break even, and her family gets to enjoy the pool that way when it's not servicing the neighbors, and she wouldn't be able to afford the pool otherwise. The neighborhood people also appreciate it, as they have a local entertainment option for their kids.

I'm not saying whether that's write or wrong here. I'm just saying that it doesn't get my goat, and I'm not loosing sleep over her choices..

Forcing someone to daven in a minyan like that and pay for it would get my goat. This doesn't. I feel less supportive of the OP because she seems to equate the two, which makes it seem like there may be more to the story, or that this is more about controlling other people's choices than about what's right.

amother

Blush

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 10:47 am

amother wrote:

1) yes he is obligated to pay income tax on the money you give him less his expenses.

2) paying him in cash does not relieve him of that requirement.

3) You may pay him in cash.

4) repair services are not subject to a sales tax in many US jurisdictions. If the service is subject to sales tax in your jurisdiction, the repairman is required to charge and collect sales tax from you.

5) In very few jurisdictions is that sales tax permitted to be imbedded in the price (if it applies at all).

amother

Blush

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 10:58 am

LovesHashem wrote:

But would you honestly NEVER put up a paper or a flyer anywhere and are appalled one would do so?

I'm just curious...
Discuss below.

I wouldn't. The rules are there for a reason - they made the neighborhood look messy - and someone needs to be paid by the municipality to remove them (what the fine covers...). Am I appalled by others doing it? No. Maybe annoyed.

Does my dh park for 5 minutes in a spot where he is not allowed to park in the mornings to drop our daughter of at daycare. Basically everyday. He does so at risk of the ticket he might get (and has gotten). Has he rationalize why he does? Sure. Would he park there if it was a handicap spot? No. Does he block traffic? No. Does it annoy the neighbors? Perhaps, but he's received no dirty looks to date.

amother

Floralwhite

Fri, Jul 20 2018, 5:57 pm

Backyard daycamps disturb the neighbors.

LovesHashem

Sat, Jul 21 2018, 1:55 pm

amother wrote:

Backyard daycamps disturb the neighbors.

What's the difference between having 9 of your kids there or 9 of other people's?

ROFL

Sun, Jul 22 2018, 12:55 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Was clearly not JUST that, she put a clear emphasis on anything illegal.

I think that is a way to rationalize it. You can t say you don’t want to listen to a Bais Din but you can say it is illegal. If it is illegal why did her DH even go there in the first place?

Page 1 of 2

1 2 Next