The Surrendered Wife: What's the deal on it?

amother

Indigo

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 3:27 pm

Simple1 wrote:

This. Why isn't the advice gender neutral?

The author addresses this. She says it could theoretically work for men as well, but studies show that a woman has more power in a relationship. A wife's happiness is more important to the success of a marriage than the husband's. That's why the author addresses the book to women. (She says someone else can feel free to write "The Surrendered Husband")

amother

Indigo

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 3:35 pm

iluvy wrote:

You said previously that this advice is directed specifically to women because of the innate differences between women and men. But you have acknowledged that there are in fact no gender differences regarding the basic principles of this approach. You agreed that everything I listed is true for both men and women. But then you say again, "Hashem created man and woman differently with different needs." Again, which relevant needs are different here? These are basic human needs.

To say that it's a good thing for a man to be in charge of the household is to take the original idea out of its context, which is that it is a cursed and terrible thing, no matter how caring and loving his regime. This is very explicit in the Torah.

I'm curious, why does it bother you so much that the book is addressed to women only? Laura never says that men shouldn't do the things in the book. She wrote a book for women, so she's addressing her advice to women. Men can feel free to take that advice too.

InnerMe

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 3:35 pm

iluvy wrote:

Wouldn't this be very much more conducive to good marriages if it were gender netural?

The idea of a "natural" head of household is like "natural" childbirth. It's extremely painful and dangerous to women, a tragic curse from Chava's sin, and B"H B"H B"H we don't have to put up with it anymore.

A little off tangent- but can you explain this statement?
I'm not understanding. AFAIK the curse from the sin of eitz hadas will only be over once mashiach comes. What are you basing this on?

iluvy

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 3:41 pm

pause wrote:

Um... Laura Doyle's book? LOL

Her life experience and those of all the women she writes about.

I'm sure you know that her book is not a source, and neither is her life experience. Unless you want to rephrase your takeaway from her book as

pause wrote:

The difference is that Laura Doyle thinks that the men she knows feel successful when their wives are happy. (There is a certain need they have to be able to make their wives happy.) OTOH, Laura and thewomen she knows feel they can be happy by making themselves happy instead of relying on their husbands to make them happy.

Needless to say, this is not my experience. I am not happy and do not feel successful if my husband is not happy, and I have a hard time believing that most wives in healthy relationships merrily roll along when their husbands are sad, or that this is an ideal to strive for.

pause wrote:

The way she explains it: Women are the s-xier s-x. LOL

It's (historically? biologically?) ingrained in society that men pursue women they want and once they have them, want to keep them happy. The problem is they don't know how.

Actually, it's biologically and historically ingrained in society that since women need men to provide for themselves and their offspring, they are biologically ingrained to need to make their husbands happy.

Actually, it's biologically and historically ingrained in society that since women and men have mutual need of each other for pragmatic reasons, neither one biologically cares about making the other one happy, and happiness in marriage is a recent societal construct. (Actually true).

Or whatever the heck I want to make up.

pause wrote:

Thinking men and women are exactly the same is silly.

Again, in what significant way are they different here? What has been said on this thread about one gender that is not true for the other?

iluvy

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 3:43 pm

pause wrote:

amother wrote:

iluvy is a feminist. Wink

Well yes, I am, and not just a feminist but an angry one Smile

But I'm also a scientist, and a frum person, and it bothers me to hear this baseless nonsense about biology and Torah sources brought up here as unquestionable axioms.

amother

Taupe

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 3:45 pm

amother wrote:

I think it has some good insights. As with any book, take what feels right for you and your situation, leave the rest.

I've been trying to implement some suggestions in the book and they really helped my marriage. Letting go over stupid things. Not arguing, not criticizing. Accepting him as he is. I wouldn't go so far as to give him total control over finances.

I wrote this comment on the first page.

I think the arguments over whether or not you "need" to read the book are silly. People are sharing their experiences of what worked for them. Nobody needs to read the book. You might read it and find one or two good points. You might read it and toss it away and forget about it. Or you might read it and get so hung up on a single point that you can't read the rest.

If you're happy with your marriage without this book, great! If you don't feel you need it, don't.

iluvy

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 3:47 pm

InnerMe wrote:

A little off tangent- but can you explain this statement?
I'm not understanding. AFAIK the curse from the sin of eitz hadas will only be over once mashiach comes. What are you basing this on?

I'm basing this on the book The Moon's Lost Light, and this part of the book is based on the Vilna Gaon's teachings on ikvisa d'meshicha.

She says that he taught that in the period before Mashiach, the curses will weaken and the world will start to become more ideal, like the time before the chet.

We can see this happening in many dimensions. For example, men no longer slave in the fields to earn a living, women only have labor pains if they want to, they very rarely die in childbirth (though it does happen r"l)

And... men no longer rule households in Western society b"H... unless their wives read this book and decide that's what they want :shrug:

amother

Tan

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 3:51 pm

amother wrote:

Why This Book Isn't Called the Surrendered Husband

If you're a wife who feels overwhelmed, lonely and responsible for everything, this book is perfect for you. If you can admit that you frequently or sometimes control, nag, or criticize your husband, then it is up to you and you alone to take the actions described here to restore intimacy to your marriage and dignity and peace to yourself. I am not saying that you are responsible for every problem in your marriage. You are not. Your husband has plenty of areas he could improve too, but that's nothing you can control. You can't make him change¯you can only change yourself. The good news is that since you've identified the behaviors that contribute to your problems, you can begin to solve them. Rather than wasting time thinking about what my husband should do, I prefer to keep all my energy for improving my happiness. The point of my journey was to give up controlling behavior, and to look inward instead of outward. I encourage you to do the same. You won't have to look far for someone to tell you that surrendering is crazy, but it isn't. It's not crazy to want romance and passion in your marriage. It's not crazy to want to feel respect for your life partner. It's not crazy to give up doing things that deplete your spirit and ask for help. It's not crazy to stop trying to control things you have no control over. It is scary, but it's not crazy. Don't let people who lack your courage tell you otherwise.

mommy201

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 4:01 pm

iluvy wrote:

So you are saying that the fact that men need to provide for the families is something that wasn’t before the aitz hadas, and is starting to show through now in our days? I am just trying to understand where your coming from.

Is there a source stating in the book that quotes the Vilna gaon, that men being isn’t the Torah way?

I would take this concept to mean that the curse was that men need to toil in the fields and sweat in order to provide for their families, which is maybe lessening in our days as well. I don’t think it has anything to do with man being in charge of his household. There are so many sources in the Torah to show that a man is the man of the house, so I can’t imagine how numerous Torah sources are wrong.
Being a man of the house doesn’t mean that they are better and have more spiritual power, on the contrary, as amother posted, woman probably do have more spiritual power and the power to change things.

pause

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 4:02 pm

iluvy wrote:

Well yes, I am, and not just a feminist but an angry one Smile

But I'm also a scientist, and a frum person, and it bothers me to hear this baseless nonsense about biology and Torah sources brought up here as unquestionable axioms.

Just FTR, I didn't say anything about Torah sources or Torah hashkafa. It just makes sense. And it works.

But I'm no scientist, so I haven't got anything substantial for you.

Last edited by pause on Tue, Jul 24 2018, 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

InnerMe

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 4:03 pm

iluvy wrote:

Interesting.
I haven't read that book though I am in the middle of reading Circle Arrow Spiral, which seems to based on a similar premise; that we are moving closer to the ideal.

I've always learned for pain of childbirth to include not only the actual childbirth but also pregnancy. Whatever way you flip it having a baby is no a walk in the park. Even further, some meforshim take it further and say that it's referring to the whole child rearing pains. Raising children is difficult.

As to men no longer working as slaves.. well they aren't but they are still working for parnassah mighty hard. Prior to the sin, God had created the world that things just grow through his will, all ready to eat, there's no work involved at all in putting bread on the table. Parnassah is unquestionably something we work for.

amother

Pewter

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 5:02 pm

amother wrote:

Studies show that the woman's happiness is more important than the man's happiness in regards to their marriage. Something can be true for both genders, but still more significant to one over the other

I don't have studies or sources, but I agree that this may be true in this day and age. That is, a woman's happiness is more important to the marriage SURVIVING. I don't know if it's more important to the quality of the marriage.

Research shows that women on the whole initiate a lot more divorces than men, especially in long term marriages. Women today are more independent, and with the divorce stigma gone, if they aren't happy in the marriage, there is a good chance they will want out.

Men, on the other hand, seem more able to stomach unhappiness in marriage. Maybe they just don't care as much. They seem to be able to distance themselves more easily. Or maybe it's just that they are more scared of being alone than a woman is. In any case, they are initiating far less divorces than women.

I am just cynical that the 'surrendered' approach makes most women happier. I think it might make certain women in certain marriages happier, but I don't think it would work for the mainstream. But women are often so desperate to be happy in their marriage that they will try anything.

amother

Orchid

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 5:26 pm

amother wrote:

The whole idea is that if ur a surrendered wife your hisband will automatically take his responsibilities seriously! It's just the way hashem created men & women! It's cause & effect, if the wife surrenders, the husband will pick up his responsibilities. It is ESPECIALLY worthwhile for a wife of a husband that is a lazy good for nothing!

This is untrue bec some women got married and did not take control but wanted to let theur dhs make the important decisions, take care of the finances....and treat him like a king.

What happened was that these wives of these dhs who are lazy good for nothings realized that these dhs are NOT PAYING BILLS BUT SPENDING MONEY ON TAKEOUT ETC...is out of a job every month bec they dont get to work in time...are not fixing anything around the house bec they are lazy....IT TURNS OUT THESE DHS WILL NOT CHANGE UNLESS THEY CHAnge their natural habit of laziness/lack of ambition. This forces the wife TO TAKE CONTROL OF MOST THINGS BEC THESE "LAZY BUMS" DID NOT TAKE CONTROL WHEN THESE WIVES GAVE THEM THE OPPURTUNITY WHEN MARRIAGE STARTED!!!

The cause was not" the woman taking control" and effect__ "the man is now lazy"
NO ITS THE OPPOSITE!! cause "(the man has oppurtunity to take control of....) man is lazy and therefore doesnt take control"
Effect is "wife is forced to take control"

The book is only for women who started off taking control such that their dhs COULDNT TAKE CONTROL BEC OF THEIR WIVES' NEED TO BE IN CONTROL. NOT THE OTHER WAY AroUND!! So, if the dh was never given an oppurtunity to be in control, this is a book for them. But, if wives gave dhs oppurtunity to take control and they did things like bouncs checks, not pay bills, forget to give school forms in ...then this book iz not for them bec the dhs will drive them into debt , leave them with shutoffs....

amother

Royalblue

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 5:38 pm

amother wrote:

Re the bolded. So what DO you do when you husband is point blank not fixing the leaking roof? Are you happy knowing you cannot take care of it yourself? When my roof is leaking and it's only (ONLY) his job to get it fixed, I'm not sure it's going to help to tell me to "look inward." But I guess if that makes you happy..... me, I just want DH to call the dang repairman.

amother

Indigo

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 5:46 pm

amother wrote:

Either: Follow the six steps surrendered wife method. You can't just follow one step of relinquishing control and expect things to be perfect. You gotta do all the other steps too.
Or: fix it myself.
How would you deal with it?
I know that before reading SW, I would have asked, nagged, guilted, cried, and maybe finally taken care of it myself, feeling resentful every step of the way.

mommy201

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 6:50 pm

amother wrote:

I hear your point. The book that I read does say that men with extreme personalities or traits that you are describing, that the book is not for them. But, if a husband with mostly normal issues even if they are a little forgetful, lazy.... then it would be for them.
I don’t think the book is only for the very controlling wife, I think it’s for regular people as well. Most women automatically try to control different aspects without their even knowing.
Many times the laziness from the husbands manifests and shows out more because the women takes care of everything.
I don’t know your situation and this probably doesn’t apply to you, but there is guidance in the beginning of the book and you would be able to tell if it’s for you or not.