Perspetive needed | Imamother

amother

Yellow

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 12:47 pm

I could use some perspective from moms of older kids. I was an only child, so I suppose my own perception of larger family life, and different types of teen behavior, is somewhat limited.

I find myself frequently sad and disappointed in my older teens. Both (girl and boy) seem uninterested in family life, dismissive of me as a parent and a person, bored and uninterested in anything we might have to offer (ie, the happy/fun stuff, like a vacation even).

I'm not expecting them to be my friends or make me a confidant and I completely understand that teens are teens, moody, friend-oriented, etc. I think the degree of it is just surprising to me. For example I am at work today, with my youngest ds home sick. I asked my 17 year old ds who is not working today to babysit. This is a very very infrequent occurrence. I even offered to pay him, as it is summertime, and he is taking on odd jobs in addition to a more regular work schedule.

His reaction to me, and this is very typical, was annoyance and impatience. I trust him completely in terms of taking care of his brother, he is responsible and mature in general. But I am struggling to understand if I am expecting something unreasonable, that he would see that he is needed to step up (again, very rare) and do so graciously. He is with his brother, but as I could have predicted, not really interacting or engaging with him (I know this because when I called home during lunch time, my youngest was telling me things he needed (ie, put on a show, get a bowl of cereal), that his brother was basically ignoring.

amother

Cyan

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 12:54 pm

amother wrote:

Your son is on school, working hard, most of the year. During the summer, he's not only working one job, he's taking on additional work to make extra money. Then today, he has a day off. Maybe he intends to sleep late. Maybe he just wants to hang out with his friends. Or maybe just relax. But its finally a day off. But he's not getting a day off. Instead, you told him that he wasn't entitled to a day off; he has to watch his sibling.

If that happened to you, you'd be upset. Its certainly reasonable for him to be unhappy about it as well.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't have asked him. If you had no choice, you had no choice. But its really asking a lot to ask a teen who has very little spare time to give it up, and asking far too much that he not be unhappy about it.

amother

Brown

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 12:59 pm

Hi, I have two teens, and I would like to offer my perspective. While eye rolling, etc is NORMAL behavior for teens, it is still INNAPROPRIATE. So, while you have nothing to worry about ("how did I raise such a self absorbed brat?"), you must point out the need for family members to help each other with a gracious attitude. You can also consider giving consequences for behavior that is selfish or unkind. Teens do need boundaries put on their behavior, as these are habits that can form and follow them into adulthood (please explanation that to them when you correct their behavior.)

amother

Brown

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 1:01 pm

amother wrote:

Your son is on school, working hard, most of the year. During the summer, he's not only working one job, he'moos taking on additional work to make extra money. Then today, he has a day off. Maybe he intends to sleep late. Maybe he just wants to hang out with his friends. Or maybe just relax. But its finally a day off. But he's not getting a day off. Instead, you told him that he wasn't entitled to a day off; he has to watch his sibling.

If that happened to you, you'd be upset. Its certainly reasonable for him to be unhappy about it as well.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't have asked him. If you had no choice, you had no choice. But its really asking a lot to ask a teen who has very little spare time to give it up, and asking far too much that he not be unhappy about it.

I strongly disagree with this, and worry that parenting teens with such a perspective will result in immature, entitled adults. The op did not in any way seem to be taking advantage of her son.

amother

Brown

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 1:01 pm

amother wrote:

I strongly disagree with this, and worry that parenting teens with such a perspective will result in immature, entitled adults. The op did not in any way seem to be taking advantage of her son.

Metukah

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 1:06 pm

amother wrote:

That is the wrong attitude and thankfully op knows that, that gives some hope that her ds might not turn out a complete brat.

OP runs a home which is a full time job in itself. She has taken on another job to bring in some income; for these same children in the household she is running, ds included.

She asked her son for a favour, as a grateful child he should have willingly obliged. He's disappointed, that's understandable but he should not be showing it.

OP I think you should have a chat with him. His future wife will appreciate it.

bsy

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 1:35 pm

amother wrote:

I don't have teens so I may not be qualified to answer, but I'm not so far removed from my own teen years. It's not like he has one day off the whole year. This is summer vacation, which is plenty long and unstructured. It's really not that terrible to be "on call" for a day. When I was in 8th grade, my mother finished work a full week or more after all the kids, and I babysat them every day. I don't remember if I got paid or not, but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask of a teen.

Aylat

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 2:28 pm

My oldest are preteens, but we live in a culture where that age group helps a lot with younger siblings, picks the 3 year old up from gan etc. When I need regular help (eg every Tuesday I work later) then I'm careful that it not be a burden - if my daughter doesn't want to take it on then I'll make other babysitting arrangements. If it's a one-off (I'm stuck in traffic), then, yes, an older kid has to step up and pick up the gan kid. I call that a family need, not 'babysitting'. However, I don't require that they be happy about it. "You have to do it but you're allowed to grumble" is my refrain.

amother

Yellow

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 2:54 pm

Thank you for all the replies. They are mixed, as I guess could be predicted. My own feelings are mixed. On one hand, I want to accept the responses that say it's typical, as that is comforting to me. But in the other hand, it just seems extreme to me. Like they will grumble and protest always. For anything. I could have a baby in the bath, and be obviously unable to do something so minor like get the door or answer the phone, whatever, and get annoyed grumbles when I call out for help. Always. I'm really not exaggerating.

That's really what bothers me the most. The consistency of it.

amother

Cyan

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 2:59 pm

bsy wrote:

Did you miss the part about the 17 year old having a regular work schedule and, in addition, taking on odd jobs to make more money. He doesn't have a "long and unstructured" summer. He has a summer where he's basically working 2 jobs and, on a presumably rare day off, was asked to watch his sibling instead of being at leisure.

And he did it. He didn't say no. He didn't walk out. He's watching his sibling.

The OP's complaint is that he grumbled about it. And reality check -- why shouldn't he be unhappy that he's not getting his day off.

Its not expecting too much that he pitch in. It is asking too much that he not be annoyed about it.

amother

Yellow

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 5:06 pm

amother wrote:

So I would agree on an individual basis. My concern and I suppose, disappointment, is that it is consistent, and ongoing, and relates to way smaller issues and requests. I am proud of him in many many ways, like I said he is mature and trustworthy. His summer work schedule is not as intense as I apparently made it seem, but he is a good student, and works hard in school.

I recognize all that. I guess I wanted to know if the seeming disconnect from family needs in general, not wanting to join, giving us a hard time for any event (ie, going out for shabbos lunch), is not more than it should be. Its not just him, but his older sibling as well, who he probably picked it up from to some degree. But I feel it impacts so strongly on our existence as a family, as a cohesive family. And certainly, I always have an eye toward who he will be in the future, as a husband and father, with G-d's help.

amother

Brown

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 5:27 pm

amother wrote:

Now that you are painting a fuller picture, I would say that yes, their behavior does seem to be a bit extreme. Not coming to help you with the door without an eye roll is extremely unkind. Op, I would write each teen a letter and address this behavior in two ways:

1. After expressing your love and pride in their good qualities, I would point out this attitude problem. I would express how sad and disappointed it makes you, and describe how it affects the whole family. I would explain how being in the habit of such behavior is detrimental to THEM. I would then set clear expectations (if you are asked to bring in the groceries I expect you to help without rolling your eyes or grumbling, if you dont want to eat out on Shabbos I expect you to express this politely and then we can think of an alternative), and then warn that consequences will be set in place (reduction of privileges, rides, allowances) if expectations are not met.

2. I would ask if you hurt or misunderstood them in any way to bring about this poor attitude toward helping you or joining in family activities. Offer to be a nonjudgmental listening ear to any grievances they may have to air that's causing them to be so angry/rude. But warn that while feelings are ok, the behavior must stop.

Good luck, you CAN turn this around.

amother

Brown

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 5:27 pm

amother wrote:

Mommastuff

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 10:29 pm

op, I think that your kids response was normal, albeit not the ideal response.

Some kids are born with a giving personality. Those kids would say "ok" to a request and with no negative feedback. They'll do it because someone needs their help and they'll happily comply. They may offer to help with out being asked.
Other kids are naturally more self-centered and have to be coaxed to agree to a request. They know that they won't have a choice to say no and they'll show their unhappiness, but will still do the job.

They are both normal. It takes maturity to agree to a request while not making the person asking feel bad for doing so.

I think that since you are a giving person, you are looking for the same in your children. With you modeling generosity, they will show that they have picked that up too, in time (hopefully)

WhatFor

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 10:48 pm

Rabbi Greenwald (of Meor) had a shiur on parenting where would advise against asking children to take care of other children. I think his view was that asking them to contribute to other household chores is fine but they did not choose to have the children and should not be made responsible.

You say that you rarely request that so that might be moot for you anyway, but offering that viewpoint as resentment might be a normal response to that kind of request.

In any case, I would avoid critiquing a 17 year old's attitude. I think in the world of picking battles, that's just one I'd put on the backseat. He's a hard-working teen, you're not going to control his feelings about what he has to do, just say thank you when he does help.

Fox

Tue, Jul 24 2018, 11:27 pm

Are you me, Yellow Amother? Are you absolutely sure you're not me?

I, too, am an only child, and life with a large family (or what seems like a large family when you're an only child!) definitely takes adjustment -- over and over again as the kids move through different stages. Also like you, I was pretty independent from an early age.

You already know your kids don't have legitimate grievances that justify their dramatic performances whenever they're asked to pitch in. The question is how to stop it.

I can share what worked for me (and the degree to which it worked):

* Completely ignore the dramatics. If I had to guess, I'd say that protesting while doing the requested act is a way for them to differentiate themselves as adults and establish the fact that they're very busy people, just like you. Nevertheless, it's obnoxious. Smile pleasantly and thank whoever reluctantly dragged himself from the couch to answer the door and pretend that you are entirely too important and cool to be bothered by such performances.

* At a time when everyone is relaxed, ask your teenagers how they want you to communicate requests. My 18-year-old DS will happily do what I ask, but he doesn't like surprises. "Please come and take out the garbage" will earn grumbles, but "Please take out the garbage within the next hour" results in the job getting done without comment. Naturally, answering the door won't wait for an hour, but if you respond to their preferences on a regular basis, they're usually more ameniable when something is urgent.

* Also when everyone is relaxed, mention that all the grumbling is hurtful and unpleasant, and invite them to tell you when they have a legitimate reason for not wanting to do something but to work on reducing the auto-grumbling feature.

* Remember Pavlov's dogs. That's right: reward good behavior. Whatever goodies you dispense as a head of the household -- emotional, material, behavioral -- do so when they've done an assigned task without complaint. Yes, I know it's manipulative. Being old and sly should count for something.

While the current Jewish education climate offers incalcuable benefits, we have to be honest and compensate for some of the unintended consequences. One of those consequences is that kids tend to be simultaneously held to very high standards while also being exempted from a lot of day-to-day tasks and responsibilities.

Unfortunately, this is sometimes exacerbated by rebbeim, teachers, and principals who remind kids that "Remember, your main job is being a student!" They are trying to remind the teenagers to focus on school and learning -- as opposed to playing video games, gossiping, and shopping. The teenagers, however, are happy to take it as, "You shouldn't have to do any housework."

I will freely admit, though, that none of my ideas completely eliminates all of the Tony-worthy performances I've seen over the years. Sometimes you just have to remember that they'll grow up and, I"YH, have children of their own, and that theatricality runs in families.