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zaq
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 Sun, Jul 29 2018, 1:53 pm
It would work as a joke only if it were the Purim edition of the paper.
Besides....al tiftach peh lasatan. Once someone makes a joke of this kind, the concept scatters in the air like mold spores that go everywhere, land on hospitable surfaces, take root and become impossible to eradicate. Next thing you know, it’s become Halacha leMoshe miSinai.
Last edited by zaq on Sun, Jul 29 2018, 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Lavender
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Sun, Jul 29 2018, 1:58 pm
| zaq wrote: | | It would work as a joke only if it were the Purim edition of the paper. |
Given my outsider understanding of KY - I didn't see this to be anything out of the ordinary really.
(Though I do wonder if celebrating a birthday with a cake is considered to be serious rebellion - curtain closes kind of thing).
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zaq
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Sun, Jul 29 2018, 2:22 pm
| amother wrote: | Given my outsider understanding of KY - I didn't see this to be anything out of the ordinary really.
(Though I do wonder if celebrating a birthday with a cake is considered to be serious rebellion - curtain closes kind of thing). |
I, too, doubt that it’s a joke though I fervently hope it is. Even KY must have its members who are considered extremists by their neighbors. The birthday cake ban makes complete sense for a group that seeks to be as different as possible from secular society and will ban a style of eyeglasses because it’s too much in fashion. Birthday cake is, after all, not an authentic Jewish custom. (Not that all Jewish or even Chassidish customs have authentic Jewish roots.)
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BetsyTacy
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Sun, Jul 29 2018, 2:24 pm
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How can Bonei Olam be considered "women's stuff" when the mitzva of pru urvu is on the man?
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amother
Blush
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Sun, Jul 29 2018, 2:52 pm
Disclaimer: I do not want to bash any group, including Satmar.
But just on a humorous note, when I read this, I spontaneously turned to dh and asked him:
"Rule 23 - "Womens first name cant be written, only her initial can be used (except for ads for parties)"
- Are they going to change their name to "Sat-M." now? After all, Satmar derives from the Romanian (previously Hungarian) town Satu Mare which means S@int M@ry. Clearly a woman's name. Cutting that down to the initials leaves you with Sat-M."
Hope no one feels offended by this - personally, I'm glad to live in a community that doesn't go that far, but as we know, ע' פנים לתורה.
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naturalmom5
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Sun, Jul 29 2018, 3:29 pm
thank Hashem for having lived a “full” life (indeed,
Ruchoma Shain reports that her father, Rav Yakov Yosef
Herman zt”l held a celebration upon turning 70 for this
exact reason). The acharonim debate whether this beracha
should be recited with Hashem’s name (b’shem u’malchus
– see Pri Megadim, Mishbetzos Zahav, Orach Chaim 444:9,
and Hagahos Chasam Sofer, Orach Chaim 222). The Kaf
Hachaim writes that one should recite a she’hechiyanu on
his 60th birthday as well, in celebration of the fact that he
is now past the age that he would have died had he been
chayav kareis. He does suggest, though, that this
berachah be made on a new fruit with the intention to
exempt the obligation to make the she’hechiyanu in honor
of this milestone birthday.
B. Torah Learning. The K’sav Sofer (Responsa Yoreh Deah
148) writes that on his 50th birthday he celebrated by
making a public siyum on maseches Pesachim and
“thanking Hashem for bringing me to this point in my life,
and for giving me the strength to learn and teach torah”.
He also took the opportunity to pray that Hashmem should
“help me continue to work for His sake and the sake of His
torah… and that Hashem should be with him as He was
with his forefathers in the battle to promote the growth of
torah, rebuild the many breaches that have been made in
the torah, and to be saved from those who speak evil of
our torah”. As mentioned above, Rav Ovadia Yosef goes so
far as to say that it is appropriate to have a special meal
on one’s birthday where he recites divrei torah, and that
such a meal would enjoy the status of a seudas mitzvah
(Responsa Yabia Omer, Orach Chaim 6:29).
C. Personal reflection. The K’sav Sofer also used his
birthday as a time for personal reflection. Kuntros Ohel
Leah (written by the son of the K’sav Sofer and printed at
the beginning of K’sav Sofer al haTorah) records an
incident when a student went to visit the K’sav Sofer and
found him crying. The student asked his rebbe what the
reason for his tears was, and the K’sav Sofer responded
that it was his 54th birthday and he began to judge himself
(dan, the Hebrew word for “judge” has a gematria of 54)
and realized that he has not accomplished nearly as much
as he should have in his 54 years in this world. He sensed
that he was lacking in torah knowledge and righteousness,
and was moved to tears by this realization.
D. Bein Adam L’chaveiro. Of course, the notion of
respecting others and showing them that they are
appreciated is a universal one, and is not limited to any
single day of the year. Even so, Responsa Aparkasta
D’anya (123) records that the Tiferes Yisrael insisted that
his children write notes of mazal tov to each other on their
birthdays. The custom to send a birthday card, while far
from any form of halachic obligation or established custom,
is a fine way to make others feel good about themselves,
which is obviously a fulfillment of V’ahavta l’reacha
kamocha.
Sefer Hakatan V’hilchosav (chapter 84) writes that the
Jews of Yerushalayim made a birthday celebration for their
rabbi, Rav Shmuel Salant, in honor of his seventieth and
eightieth birthdays respectively. As a form of celebration,
Rav Salant sent the amount of coins corresponding to his
age to tzedakah.
V. Conclusion. We have explored the concept of a birthday and a
birthday celebration from a Jewish standpoint. As with anything
positive in our lives, we have found that our rabbinic leaders have
developed uniquely Jewish ways to celebrate a birthday. Using the
opportunity of a birthday to rethink our priorities, strengthen our
commitment to torah, and our commitment to other people would
certainly be a most productive method of celebration.
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Maya
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Sun, Jul 29 2018, 3:34 pm
| OutATowner wrote: | Clearly the target audience is not on this site, so let's not bash and there is no reason to argue
This is how they would like to make gedarim (and gedarim for gedarim). Not for me, but also not my place to judge. |
It is absolutely our place to judge and to speak up about how wrong this is. This is why ultra orthodox leaders are able to behave like dictators and run their organizations with terror tactics. Because everyone else politely says “don’t judge.”
We’ll judge someone who is less frum than us from here till tomorrow, but when repressed and abusive practices are implemented in the name of religion, suddenly we “don’t judge.”
Pathetic hypocrisy.
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NovelConcept
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Sun, Jul 29 2018, 3:46 pm
| Maya wrote: | It is absolutely our place to judge and to speak up about how wrong this is. This is why ultra orthodox leaders are able to behave like dictators and run their organizations with terror tactics. Because everyone else politely says “don’t judge.”
We’ll judge someone who is less frum than us from here till tomorrow, but when repressed and abusive practices are implemented in the name of religion, suddenly we “don’t judge.”
Pathetic hypocrisy. |
I read a very nice quote yesterday, which went something like this.
"I've never met a man who is both thankful and bitter. You can't be bitter if you appreciate what you have."
Just saying...
I'm not mixing into this whole rules thing, but Maya, maybe count your blessings instead of getting all riled up and letting your bitterness flow.
When you chose to walk away from chasidishkeit, I'm sure you had reasons that appeared good to you and that you blamed on the chasidishe world, in general.
I'm not negating your pain.
I AM pointing out that you have tremendous bitterness and you will always bash chasidim and our way of life whenever you have the chance.
It is a negative bias. But your one experience is not all inclusive.
Because for every one of you, there are thousands more who are happy in the life they lead.
So don't rile up chasidishe-targeted anti-semitism.
And every time you post with intense bitterness, you are promoting hatred between Yidden.
That's an awfully big thing to carry on your shoulders.
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soap suds
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Sun, Jul 29 2018, 3:50 pm
| Maya wrote: | It is absolutely our place to judge and to speak up about how wrong this is. This is why ultra orthodox leaders are able to behave like dictators and run their organizations with terror tactics. Because everyone else politely says “don’t judge.”
We’ll judge someone who is less frum than us from here till tomorrow, but when repressed and abusive practices are implemented in the name of religion, suddenly we “don’t judge.”
Pathetic hypocrisy. |
2 wrongs don't make a right. We shouldn't judge those less frum nor those that have more chumros. And how will us discussing it here change the way Orthodox leaders choose to lead their communities?
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Maya
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Sun, Jul 29 2018, 3:53 pm
| NovelConcept wrote: | I read a very nice quote yesterday, which went something like this.
"I've never met a man who is both thankful and bitter. You can't be bitter if you appreciate what you have."
Just saying...
I'm not mixing into this whole rules thing, but Maya, maybe count your blessings instead of getting all riled up and letting your bitterness flow.
When you chose to walk away from chasidishkeit, I'm sure you had reasons that appeared good to you and that you blamed on the chasidishe world, in general.
I'm not negating your pain.
I AM pointing out that you have tremendous bitterness and you will always bash chasidim and our way of life whenever you have the chance.
It is a negative bias. But your one experience is not all inclusive.
Because for every one of you, there are thousands more who are happy in the life they lead.
So don't rile up chasidishe-targeted anti-semitism.
And every time you post with intense bitterness, you are promoting hatred between Yidden.
That's an awfully big thing to carry on your shoulders. |
When someone brands me as bitter, which they think is the ultimate insult, all I see is someone who couldn’t counter my post with a coherent intelligent argument and had to resort to personal attacks.
If you have something to say about the content of my post, I’d gladly listen. Otherwise, I’m not interested in what you think of me personally. It’s obvious you don’t know anything about me or my life, so save it.
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naturalmom5
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Sun, Jul 29 2018, 3:56 pm
I didn't find Maya's comment to be bitter at all...
She is absolutely and brutally honest and spot on and you can't handle that..
What I would respect is for you to write up an article going down that list of 25 things citing Rishonim Achronim and Tshuva seforim to back up each point on the list..
Sort of like I did with birthdays..
Scratch that, women in your community know next to nothing... Maybe ask your husband to help you
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Maya
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Sun, Jul 29 2018, 3:57 pm
| soap suds wrote: | | 2 wrongs don't make a right. We shouldn't judge those less frum nor those that have more chumros. And how will us discussing it here change the way Orthodox leaders choose to lead their communities? |
It’s wrong to say that we shouldn’t judge evil. Speaking up creates and spreads awareness, and possibly encourage people to use the tools that they have to reject the way these leaders control their communities. By shutting down all discussion of it, we’re enabling the evil. I don’t want to be responsible for that.
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NovelConcept
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Sun, Jul 29 2018, 3:58 pm
| Maya wrote: | When someone brands me as bitter, which they think is the ultimate insult, all I see is someone who couldn’t counter my post with a coherent intelligent argument and had to resort to personal attacks.
If you have something to say about the content of my post, I’d gladly listen. Otherwise, I’m not interested in what you think of me personally. It’s obvious you don’t know anything about me or my life, so save it. |
Maya, I saw no reason to respond to your arguments as they were completely nonsensical ramblings. But it is the ramblings of the bitter who stir up the masses into a frenzy.
As I said, I'm not mixing into this whole conversation, but I will point out that everyone on this thread has been more or less respectful, until you came along.
There is nothing balanced or intelligent about the following sentence you wrote, which, more than anything else on this thread, is extremist.
You wrote:
This is why ultra orthodox leaders are able to behave like dictators and run their organizations with terror tactics.
Yup. Don't worry about Jihad; Jewhad is here!
Exaggerated much? You bet.
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Maya
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Sun, Jul 29 2018, 4:00 pm
| NovelConcept wrote: | Maya, I saw no reason to respond to your arguments as they were completely nonsensical ramblings. But it is the ramblings of the bitter who stir up the masses into a frenzy.
As I said, I'm not mixing into this whole conversation, but I will point out that everyone on this thread has been more or less respectful, until you came along.
There is nothing balanced or intelligent about the following sentence you wrote, which, more than anything else on this thread, is extremist.
You wrote:
This is why ultra orthodox leaders are able to behave like dictators and run their organizations with terror tactics.
Yup. Don't worry about Jihad; Jewhad is here!
Exaggerated much? You bet. |
So you think it was an exaggeration. Okay. We’re all entitled to our opinions.
Last edited by Maya on Sun, Jul 29 2018, 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NovelConcept
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Sun, Jul 29 2018, 4:01 pm
| naturalmom5 wrote: | I didn't find Maya's comment to be bitter at all...
She is absolutely and brutally honest and spot on and you can't handle that..
What I would respect is for you to write up an article going down that list of 25 things citing Rishonim Achronim and Tshuva seforim to back up each point on the list..
Sort of like I did with birthdays..
Scratch that, women in your community know next to nothing... Maybe ask your husband to help you |
I was waiting for you to chime in. Because the only other one who ever has anything as anti-chasidishe to bring to a thread is you, naturalmom5. And again, as you mentioned elsewhere, you have bitterness towards the chasidishe community as well, because you couldn't fit into it.
I'm not blaming you for feeling hurt. Pain is a normal human emotion. But don't turn your pain into an attack on an entire community of people which is comprised of thousands of individuals with their own thoughts and feelings, just like your own.
Last edited by NovelConcept on Sun, Jul 29 2018, 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NovelConcept
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Sun, Jul 29 2018, 4:02 pm
| Maya wrote: | | It’s wrong to say that we shouldn’t judge evil. Speaking up creates and spreads awareness, and possibly encourage people to use the tools that they have to reject the way these leaders control their communities. By shutting down all discussion of it, we’re enabling the evil. I don’t want to be responsible for that. |
Maya, this is sensible comment. I agree with you fully.
But the question remains: Who determines what the definition of evil is?
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NovelConcept
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Sun, Jul 29 2018, 4:06 pm
| Maya wrote: | | So you think it was an exaggeration. Okay. We’re all entitled to our opinions. |
Actually, I have to thank you. I have new business concept to work on:
Suicide-bomb gartels...
Our slogan will be:
Just put it on and pray your way to Heaven!
You know, chap a mincha and other "mitzvos" at the same time...
This post is dripping with sarcasm for those who didn't pick up on it.
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Maya
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Sun, Jul 29 2018, 4:10 pm
| NovelConcept wrote: | Maya, this is sensible comment. I agree with you fully.
But the question remains: Who determines what the definition of evil is? |
That’s true. I mean, who said killing someone is evil? Maybe that dead person was living a really difficult life and it was actually a chessed to kill him and put him out of his misery. Who are we to judge that it’s an act of evil?
Maybe restricting any and all women’s business advertising is really a good thing, so that the women will stop making money and will be forced to close their businesses and be around more to cook and clean more for their husbands and children. Surely that’s an act of kindness for their families.
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NovelConcept
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Sun, Jul 29 2018, 4:24 pm
| Maya wrote: | That’s true. I mean, who said killing someone is evil? Maybe that dead person was living a really difficult life and it was actually a chessed to kill him and put him out of his misery. Who are we to judge that it’s an act of evil?
Maybe restricting any and all women’s business advertising is really a good thing, so that the women will stop making money and will be forced to close their businesses and be around to cook and clean for their husbands and children. Surely that’s an act of kindness for their families. |
Maya, part of being involved in a discussion to change things is having a balanced mentality and being able to carry on non-exaggerated conversation.
I agree killing people is evil. Absolutely, because the Torah says so. That's where basic morality began and was introduced into the world. Before that, paganism was rife. Human sacrifice was common and part of daily life.
So I am sure that we agree here: The Torah is the determining force in distinguishing between evil and non-evil.
Now we have a starting point.
You are inferring that chasidim kill people. I'm curious as to whom? The only story that I can think of was that boy in Skver who wanted to torch someone's home to teach him a lesson -- and yes, that was evil. He instead torched a person, who I believe, baruch Hashem, lived. That was evil. Agreed. But it does not mean that all chasidim, or even all Skvere chasidim are evil based upon the actions of one hotheaded, wrongly-minded young man.
As for advertising, I'm not Satmar, and as I said, I'm not mixing into the conversation about that paper; I am here to call out "evil."
Evil is as evil does, and even Yidden with beautiful neshamos can do evil.
They can even use their words to paint an entire community black. That is evil.
To call all ultra-orthodox leaders terrorists is evil. It is a lie and rechilus.
I may not agree with all of the standards listed on that paper in discussion, but I do agree that people from every community from Modern Orthodox to Satmar are Yidden with beautiful neshamos and that we all can build with a little more effort, rather than destroy with the fire of hatred. What do you hope to accomplish by coming on the internet and screaming that chasidim are blah, blah, blah? (Insert whichever epithet you would like.)
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Maya
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Sun, Jul 29 2018, 4:38 pm
| NovelConcept wrote: | Maya, part of being involved in a discussion to change things is having a balanced mentality and being able to carry on non-exaggerated conversation.
I agree killing people is evil. Absolutely, because the Torah says so. That's where basic morality began and was introduced into the world. Before that, paganism was rife. Human sacrifice was common and part of daily life.
So I am sure that we agree here: The Torah is the determining force in distinguishing between evil and non-evil.
Now we have a starting point.
You are inferring that chasidim kill people. I'm curious as to whom? The only story that I can think of was that boy in Skver who wanted to torch someone's home to teach him a lesson -- and yes, that was evil. He instead torched a person, who I believe, baruch Hashem, lived. That was evil. Agreed. But it does not mean that all chasidim, or even all Skvere chasidim are evil based upon the actions of one hotheaded, wrongly-minded young man.
As for advertising, I'm not Satmar, and as I said, I'm not mixing into the conversation about that paper; I am here to call out "evil."
Evil is as evil does, and even Yidden with beautiful neshamos can do evil.
They can even use their words to paint an entire community black. That is evil.
To call all ultra-orthodox leaders terrorists is evil. It is a lie and rechilus.
I may not agree with all of the standards listed on that paper in discussion, but I do agree that people from every community from Modern Orthodox to Satmar are Yidden with beautiful neshamos and that we all can build with a little more effort, rather than destroy with the fire of hatred. What do you hope to accomplish by coming on the internet and screaming that chasidim are blah, blah, blah? (Insert
whichever epithet you would like.) |
I think you are misunderstanding and misinterpreting the things I am saying. I don’t know where you read that I said chassidim kill people, and I don’t bash Chassidim personally, only their repressive and abusive practices. I also don’t need your condescending advice on how to have a proper conversation. So perhaps you should reread what I am saying and amend your posts to reflect that.
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