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WindowMagic









  


Post  Tue, Aug 07 2018, 6:11 am
I thought the scene with Itzik coming home to find Sara'le dressed in her shal, and controlling his disgust, to show concern for her fear - was a stunning stunning scene. I wasn't sure how realistic it was though. Maybe we are supposed to fill in a lot of missing events/growth in our own heads? Because he is a person who seems to have a social disorder or maybe Asperger's (low level autism), but he has exhibited SO much growth that even a socially typical person wouldn't be expected to exhibit, in the situation described above.

Or is my thought process totally wrong??
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amother




Dodgerblue


Post  Tue, Aug 07 2018, 6:21 am
WindowMagic wrote:
I thought the scene with Itzik coming home to find Sara'le dressed in her shal, and controlling his disgust, to show concern for her fear - was a stunning stunning scene. I wasn't sure how realistic it was though. Maybe we are supposed to fill in a lot of missing events/growth in our own heads? Because he is a person who seems to have a social disorder or maybe Asperger's (low level autism), but he has exhibited SO much growth that even a socially typical person wouldn't be expected to exhibit, in the situation described above.

Or is my thought process totally wrong??


I wouldn't want to label Itzik as autistic. I think he has trouble socially. He reminds me a lot of myself before I grew a lot. I thought it was realistic, sounded like something I'd do.
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WindowMagic









  


Post  Tue, Aug 07 2018, 6:33 am
amother wrote:
I wouldn't want to label Itzik as autistic. I think he has trouble socially. He reminds me a lot of myself before I grew a lot. I thought it was realistic, sounded like something I'd do.


I'd be curious to see how many people think of Itzik as having a social disorder or low level autism like I thought he may have. My evidence


1) he doesn't know what to say in common everyday social situations
2) he has difficulty taking the perspective of others (at least in the beginning - what changed all of a sudden?!)
3) He seems to prefer being alone and hate interaction - very different than just being introverted
4) He is more happy with writing and doing than talking and interacting


I am sure there is more but this is what I'll say for now
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amother




Dodgerblue


Post  Tue, Aug 07 2018, 6:43 am
WindowMagic wrote:
I'd be curious to see how many people think of Itzik as having a social disorder or low level autism like I thought he may have. My evidence


1) he doesn't know what to say in common everyday social situations
2) he has difficulty taking the perspective of others (at least in the beginning - what changed all of a sudden?!)
3) He seems to prefer being alone and hate interaction - very different than just being introverted
4) He is more happy with writing and doing than talking and interacting


I am sure there is more but this is what I'll say for now


3 and 4, I know a few introverts like that.
1 and 2, you don't need to be autistic. Some people just struggle with social stuff, and it can stem from other things besides having an autistic disorder.
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WindowMagic









  


Post  Tue, Aug 07 2018, 6:50 am
amother wrote:
3 and 4, I know a few introverts like that.
1 and 2, you don't need to be autistic. Some people just struggle with social stuff, and it can stem from other things besides having an autistic disorder.


So let's say we agree that it can go either way. What makes you choose to believe one over the other? I am just trying to figure out the author's intent.
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WindowMagic









  


Post  Tue, Aug 07 2018, 6:51 am
amother wrote:
3 and 4, I know a few introverts like that.
1 and 2, you don't need to be autistic. Some people just struggle with social stuff, and it can stem from other things besides having an autistic disorder.


You are incorrect, introverts do NOT have trouble with perspective taking.
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amother




Dodgerblue


Post  Tue, Aug 07 2018, 7:10 am
WindowMagic wrote:
You are incorrect, introverts do NOT have trouble with perspective taking.


Reread my comment. I said introverts can be 3 and 4. NOT 2.
He could be autistic, you are right.

But I've just been getting so sick of people labeling me as that way, and I really relate to Itzik. No one has any right to label someone else and shove them into a box unless you are my psychiatrist.

That being said Itzik is a fictional character, and will not be hurt if we label him.
But I'm just saying just because people have certain issues and struggles doesn't mean they can be labeled as having a disorder. Not everything has a simple explanation like that. It's frustrating and demeaning when people assume all of your actions must fit into a label.
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PinkFridge









  


Post  Tue, Aug 07 2018, 9:17 am
I don't think he has Asperger's. I think he has social issues. He might have started off fairly healthily but left to his own devices grew increasingly bitter and cynical and inner-focused. Whether or not it's realistic for someone to be so insightful without professional help is a good question but the author does show his thought processes and struggles and it's really well-written, IMO.
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animeme









  


Post  Tue, Aug 07 2018, 10:49 am
Yes, he showed growth with his external reaction. But internally, he is being very logical and calculated, very much himself. His first thought, which is a reaction to his first feeling, is about not wasting the time and effort he has put in, and he partially disconnects instantly. He has decided just about how much he is willing to do to keep his marriage. This seems about right to me for someone with social issues who has methodically taught himself how to live in the world, as we have seen him do.
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PinkFridge









  


Post  Tue, Aug 07 2018, 12:29 pm
animeme wrote:
Yes, he showed growth with his external reaction. But internally, he is being very logical and calculated, very much himself. His first thought, which is a reaction to his first feeling, is about not wasting the time and effort he has put in, and he partially disconnects instantly. He has decided just about how much he is willing to do to keep his marriage. This seems about right to me for someone with social issues who has methodically taught himself how to live in the world, as we have seen him do.


I see this. There is also a lot of healthy human tenderness, like to his stepdaughter, the deer. So I believe that not only can this marriage be saved but that it will thrive.
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animeme









  


Post  Tue, Aug 07 2018, 12:55 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
I see this. There is also a lot of healthy human tenderness, like to his stepdaughter, the deer. So I believe that not only can this marriage be saved but that it will thrive.


I agree. Which is why I hope this story shows how someone like this can remain themselves and still have a good marriage.
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seeker









  


Post  Tue, Aug 07 2018, 2:30 pm
It doesn't seem totally unrealistic in concept, but it does seem unrealistically quick.
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LovesHashem









  


Post  Tue, Aug 07 2018, 3:16 pm
seeker wrote:
It doesn't seem totally unrealistic in concept, but it does seem unrealistically quick.


Not really, from the time he met the deer he met Sara'le a month or two later, he had to have dated Sara'le for a month at least, had the wedding a month or two later, and are a month or two into marriage. That's around 5 months at least.
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amother




Brown


Post  Tue, Aug 07 2018, 3:26 pm
amother wrote:
3 and 4, I know a few introverts like that.
1 and 2, you don't need to be autistic. Some people just struggle with social stuff, and it can stem from other things besides having an autistic disorder.


Exactly.

Remember that in his circles, being an 'alter bachur' put him in a very difficult situation socially. So that could be part of the cause as well. Now that he's married, it makes sense that he's able to improve in that area.
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seeker









  


Post  Tue, Aug 07 2018, 4:31 pm
5 months is a very short time to both have a perspective shift AND learn the skills to go with it. Especially since while this may be 5 months after, he had to have had enough of those skills to date and get married in the first place.
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amother




Goldenrod


Post  Tue, Aug 07 2018, 5:39 pm
Really like this series! Look at this thread for part of the reason Smile Really well written.
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InnerMe









  


Post  Thu, Aug 09 2018, 10:38 am
I am loving this serial, and particularly loved that installment.
I would definitely not put an Aspergers label on him.
Regarding the growth being quick- not sure- but it's really there throughout a lot of the serial, it's not a sudden shift. It's a subtle behind the scenes growth, as he slowly learns that if he holds on to that "I'm the greatest and don't give a hoot about anyone else" he won't get far in terms of personal satisfaction, and building relationships.

It kind of simmers in the background, trying to remember examples.. but my brain's foggy.
I wasn't shocked at his reaction. I thought it was amazing and finally a tangible solid sign, of his immense growth. I love also how the author portrays the struggle- his silent fierce battle to just RUN. To drop it all and flee this woman covered in rags. To give in to his fury, and just get AWAY. And yet, his restraint, and his silent acknowledgment that running away has never done him any good, and instead using tremendous courage cultivated in his journey of growth, to hold back. To resist that powerful urge and stay in the difficult situation.

I hope to see more of this author's work.
I am finding it uniquely inspiring, and so nuanced and understanding of human psychology. It also has a layer of depth, that are sometimes not there in these serials.
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WindowMagic









  


Post  Thu, Aug 09 2018, 7:14 pm
I agree about the depth of the serial. It is a beautiful scene and in my OP I called it a "stunning stunning scene".
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