Frustrated with our schools

InnerMe

Fri, Aug 10 2018, 12:23 pm

I think this is something that just gets rehashed over and over:

The working moms feel that the school admin is stuck in an ivory tower, and not in touch with moms' schedules.

The teachers feel attacked and painfully misunderstood by the moms' who don't understand the tremendous work that goes into teaching and it's not so simple to "just eliminate summer vacation" or "lengthen hours". Especially when laced with derogatory comments like "cry a bucket of tears.."

Having taught for a year, my individual experience has been that teachers are woefully underrated and disrespected. And just as much as moms are saying that the admin is in an ivory tower, so are you. You will never understand the realities that a teacher deals with until you enter the classroom.

I understand the plight of moms with an inflexible working schedule, and seemingly nonstop school vacation. It's hard I get it. Childcare costs. A lot. I get it. But harassing and attacking teachers is not the solution. I won't aim to explain what a teachers job entails. It has been done here already. Every time it is shot down with "well you have summer vacation" and "an endless amount of vacation days" etc. etc. I have no patience in arguing. But I will repeat: You will not understand the realities that a teacher faces until you get into a classroom as a teacher yourself.

The real solution as an Ima posted above is that the US has got to become more work/family friendly. That means more days off. Paidmaternity leave. Possibly shorter hours. Paid childcare. It is insane that in this day an age, the US ranks lowest on family policy.
Until that doesn't happen, this argument will continue. With pushing blame from one side to another, when both sides really do have very valid and important problems.

amother

Slateblue

Fri, Aug 10 2018, 1:15 pm

InnerMe wrote:

While ideal, expecting societal changes in a large nation as this to occur in the near future, is solution that is mostly a fantasy at this point. This issue affects all of society but is particularly prominent in the Jewish world. Large families and 2 working parents, or 1 working mom, is the norm at the moment, and the schools that accommodate this crowd need to address it instead of turning the other way. Especially those schools who teach the girls that the ideal Jewish way is for the mom to work in order to enable the husband to learn. They should be more accommodating than the rest of the world, instead of less accommodating and giving off days at the drop of the hat.

Teachers are underrated and not given their due respect, but that still doesn't address why they need so many more off days than the rest of the full-time working moms. I can fully respect their hard work, and I do understand how many hours of work they put in, but why does equal needing more days off than, lets say, the people in the medical field who work 12+ hour in a shift, or the woman running a shop for 10 hours a day etc.? The workforce is really diverse these days and women are taking all kinds of positions to assist with the astronomical parnossoh needs (of which tuition is one of the largest chunks!). Teachers, while hardworking too, aren't doing more than the hardworking parents out there.

Why should hardworking teachers get off days on the accounts of the equally hardworking parents. We are talking about an equation of 1 hardworking teacher vs an average 20-30 hardworking parents. Why does the need of 1 outweigh 20-30?

InnerMe

Fri, Aug 10 2018, 1:35 pm

Firstly, this is not a competition of who works harder.

Everyone works hard.The school system is set up with many more vacation days. That's one of the benefits, yes benefits of teaching. Teachers take into account the woefully low pay, the disrespect, the lack of parent support and value of their work, the underestimated hours of prep, and emotional reserves teaching takes and include this in their decision to take the job.
Now take away one of the big benefits, and I can assure you that the teachers are gone as many have tried to outline above.

(mostly) nobody is willing to put up with all of the above, when you take away the only benefit teaching offers.

All I am asking you is to take a minute and try to see the other side.
You are wrapped up in why it's hard for you, and I absolutely get you. But just consider the ramifications of what you are asking.

Just to be clear, I am not saying schools shouldn't try to minimize vacation days, and keep parents' needs in mind. I'm just trying to help you recognize what would happen if we drastically cut it.

It's like the story with the cow (or donkey? horse? whatever) A guy has a cow but cow is consuming to much food he doesn't have enough food for himself. So he slowly decreases the amount of food that the cow gets. And hooray! He has more food to eat. What a brilliant solution! Untill one fine day.. what do you know? Cow dies. Guy rubs his head in confusion, It was going so well! I had more food and my cow was doing good... what happened here?!

amother

Slateblue

Fri, Aug 10 2018, 1:43 pm

InnerMe wrote:

I don't believe anyone is asking for a drastic cut. What most of us are asking for is that on Erev Yom tov Days (or as it is this year Erev Erev Erev Yom Tov Days), Isru Chag, the week before Pesach, etc. school should be opened for the younger kids. It probably will only amount to 10-14 days, and the teachers still get to keep their other 13 weeks off (summers, chol hamoed, chanukah vacation, etc.).

What ramifications are you referring to? I can counter your claim that nobody is willing to put up with a cut in the vacation days. Check out the Chassidishe schools in Williamsburg, for example. The younger girls have school up to 2-3 days before Pesach, have school on Erev Yom Tov, don't give off on Fast days. etc. - and there is still a long list of applicants for teachers every year.

amother

Puce

Fri, Aug 10 2018, 2:35 pm

amother wrote:

Do you really know how many hours teachers put in outside of school? Unless you have tried teaching, I doubt you do. I have heard from many people who have tried teaching that they never realized just how incredibly time-consuming it is outside of school hours and in the summer. People who work 12 hours shifts often have a couple days off a week and they don't bring work home.

amother

Slateblue

Fri, Aug 10 2018, 2:52 pm

amother wrote:

Yes, I know how many hours teachers put in. I have teachers in my family. And plenty other jobs have work brought home unofficially (and officially) too. My sisters and I have compared our lifestyles many times, and we've come to the conclusion that bottom line, everyone's job requires work and many hours. Everyone's job has its days (and nights), and it's pretty much equal across the board - except for the summertime. My sisters that are teachers are vacationing, relaxing and spending time with their children. My others sisters (and I) have eked out a mere few days to squeeze in a vacation with our children. And there's no days for a relaxing vacation for these husbands and wife, due to the consideration of how many days off the upcoming Yomim Tovim will be demanding.

Additionally, you seem to be familiar with the teacher's work. Are you familiar what three or four 12 hours weekly shifts demand of a woman? It's approximately 13-14 hours a day, depending on the commute, leaving 10 hours of the day to take care of the kids, do laundry, shop, cook and perhaps squeeze in a 4 hour nap. Or are you're familiar with the work of a law clerk, medical resident, business owners etc.? I'm just pointing this out to emphasize that everyone is working hard these days, and plenty of people work additional odd hours too.

I truly respect teachers, but I think everyone works hard these days. And having teachers lighten their load on the backs of others (and on the pocketbook of others), is something that really needs to be given a second look in today's modern times.

amother

Hotpink

Fri, Aug 10 2018, 3:01 pm

teachkids wrote:

I do want to point out that often the administrators are still working, often in the school building, on those days off. They don't take those days off despite "making the decision". As a regular teacher, I have walked into school on vacation day to pick something up or drop something off, and the administrators are hard at work, often doing things that can't get done when students are in school.

School administrator here. I know this conversation doesn't apply to our school since we don't have off on legal holidays and don't have early dismissal ever aside from fast days but I just want to point out that as administrator, I work through the summer, pay childcare and don't have a flexible job at all. So before you call the school office ready to yell, remember that we work HARD, we really care about your kids, we completely understand your frustration, we can't please everyone and we have reasons for decisions, they're not random. And please don't yell

farm

Fri, Aug 10 2018, 3:16 pm

InnerMe wrote:

The solution is not to harass the teachers (and it sidetracks these conversations when teachers start bringing up low salary and hours at home marking papers and lesson planning- frustrates non teachers who also don't make much and have long hours that often mean staying at work without the luxury of taking it home!).
The solution is not to expect the USA to change work hours so Jewish schools can give off Erev Erev yom tov and Erev and isru chag.
The solution is for the administrators in their absolute power to remove these petty extra padded days from the school calendar. Don't think you are slipping them in with us being none the wiser. And we will surely notice when you stop doing this and offer our profuse thanks (and maybe feel more magnanimous stretching to give a larger donation next time you ask).

amother

Puce

Fri, Aug 10 2018, 4:28 pm

amother wrote:

Yes, I do have people in my family in the fields you mentioned and similar ones. And I totally agree with you that they work as hard as I do. Actually, they probably work harder than I do, which is why I don't take issue with the fact that they all make more money than I do.

I was not trying to debate who works harder or exactly how many days off schools should have. I am only trying to say that my personal experience, as a teacher in a MO high school where my teaching assignments change from year to year, is that I do an inordinate amount of work at home, both during the year and in the summer. That work needs to get done sometime, and cannot be done when my children are home/awake. So, for me at least, the only way I am able to continue as a teacher is if my teaching calendar allows me the time to adequately prepare, grade papers, etc. I don't view it as a perk of teaching as much as I view it as a necessity in order to do my job. Just as with people who work a few 12 hours shifts a week I don't view it as a perk that they have a couple days off a week. That is the only way they can do their jobs. It is a necessary element of working in that type of job.

amother

Maroon

Fri, Aug 10 2018, 7:06 pm

It isn't about disrespecting teachers. It is being fed up every time we hear "oh poor teachers" when any discussion about their job comes up. Whether schedule, pay, giving tips/gifts etc. we all have hard jobs, no matter the profession. We don't all get the same perks but ALL jobs are hard so stop complaining when we question policy/habit and try to make things easier for the vast majority.
I work with people in crisis. I mean real crisis and if I didn't show up for work, people couldn't get services. I am the only one trained in a specific area that helps get these people connected. (Crisis including homeless, suicidal, mental health, low functioning adults, connecting to social services... Plus more issues).
I don't get legal holidays off. I don't get even January 1 or Memorial Day off. I have to use up my few days off for actual chag (not chol hamoed, I try to take 1 day off).
When schools don't give us advanced notice or reschedule things it drives me up the wall. THAT is usually in the teachers control. Why 10 or 11am? I want to be there but sometimes we aren't just able to take off easily. I scheduled to take off a day to spend with my kids (they had a half day) and guess what- county meeting that same day.
When do I prep for work? At home. After working 8 or 9 hours (plus commute, carpools etc) and After kids are asleep. Chag? After working a full shift. I wish I had even a day off to do these things.
Teachers, we love you and appreciate you. But don't complain about your job and ask for pity because you work half day and prep a few hours/grade papers. We all work long hours.

amother

Gray

Fri, Aug 10 2018, 7:24 pm

amother wrote:

Oh, good. An earlier poster mentioned that it's not the teachers making these calendars, it's the administrators. I really wish I could actually talk to them and make them see things from my point of view, but I hate confrontation, and the two times I attempted it, I got nowhere. It seems to be a universal problem - principals never seem to change their minds.

Obviously, you went to great lengths to point out that you are not the problem. But what's frustrating is that you say "we have reasons for decisions".

Guess what? We are never privy to these "reasons". For example, at our school we used to have a week of winter break. Then, one magical year, they made it into an extended weekend instead. I made sure to thank the principal profusely. And then, just as suddenly, boom. Back to a week long vacation. You ask why, and there's some BS excuse. But interestingly, the principal is out of town during that week of vacation.

I hate complaining. I refuse to do it, because then when there is a real problem, no one listens to you. But we are paying some serious money, and we are completely in the dark as to everyone's budget and schedule and "reasons" behind decisions that affect us.

We are all working hard. Have you seen your tuition bill lately? If you're out of town, just having two kids in school is close to $30,000, and it's not like you're approving our financial aid application. But I keep my mouth shut because the English teachers get paid below minimum wage and public school spending per child is somewhat similar. But administrators absolutely get paid extremely well and it wouldn't hurt most of them to be kind to us parents and working together with us.

amother

Pewter

Sat, Aug 11 2018, 11:19 pm

I have to agree that the schools take advantage of us parents. The amount of days I need to take off or take my kids to work with me or pay for other child care is crazy. I have 3 kids and will be paying 30k in tuition costs. (One is in playgroup). I live in town. There is ZERO REASON my pre 1Aer and second grader need to be home "to help me" a week and a half before pesach. I am at work. So should u guys. At the VERY LEAST the schools should have a program where the older students make a"camp" for the younger ones those days so we don't need to make alternate arrangements and it should ever covered by the 1000 dollars u are chargibg me for the 1 lousy week of school I am getting.
The schools are wrong but I'd we good for if open our mouths our kids won't have a spot anymore in them....
The bull**** about teachers making less doesn't cut it doesn't cut it for me. I don't make a lot and work full time. U could have taken a. Different job. It has take home work...so do I.
Ur job is no more important than any other but for some reason u think u r an extra elite group...

rzab

Sun, Aug 12 2018, 5:00 am

Can we look at this from a practical side with no emotion for one minute?
It doesn't matter if you think teachers deserve the time off or not. Like any profession, when teachers start working they are made aware of the conditions of the working environment including days off. in any other profession, if all of the sudden your boss said to you, we know we promised you x amount of days off but we are taking some of those away and not paying you more you would be (rightfully) upset. Same too with teachers. When they decide to take one job over another sometimes pay and hours are taken into account. If the school came and said we are taking away vacation days, the school would have to compensate their employees appropriately.
In Israel this comes up often. The current education minister, naftali Bennett decided in the middle of the school year that he wanted to shorten pesach vacation, as a teacher my stomach dropped. All I heard was you are going to work an extra week with no compensation. And I wasn't the only one which is why he couldn't do it and instead instituted subsided camps in schools across the country.
Another financial point to consider, every additional day of school means you also are paying more for electricity and air conditioning and support staff.... One main complaint that parents (legitimately) have is that hoe can they pay for tuition when school is always off, but the more days school is on will cause tuition to be higher. It was for. This reason that when David Dinkins was mayor of NY he created all of these random days off for public school. If I remember correctly flag day became a day off, because every day that the kids were off saved the city money!

One more point, if you don't like the calendar, kvetching about it here and complaining about the teachers is not going to get you far. Get a parent committee together and approach the school in a respectful way. Explain, these are the needs of the parent body, how can we make it happen.

amother

Salmon

Sun, Aug 12 2018, 7:29 am

InnerMe wrote:

Yes, teachers might be under attack and disrespected, I’m against that. My husband is a teacher, my mom was a teacher and I know how hard they work. Teaching isn’t an easy job and they deserve vacation days. However, even though yeshivas end an hour later than public Monday-Thursday, I still think that teachers don’t need that extra day off on erev yom tov, it should be half a day. I’m working in a Jewish place, it’s not a school, so I have off the holidays but of course I come in to work on erev of yom tov and it’s manageable. So what if there are people that end up going to their families on those days, what about the rest that don’t?

Even though all teachers work hard during school year, there are some schools that are even tougher to work in. My husband works at a charter school and all the teachers and administrators really take things VERY seriously. They all have a shorter summer vacation and go back to work mid-August... about two plus weeks earlier than public and yeshivas!! They really do a lot of workshops, professional development and they just plan and prepare a lot before the kids go back to school. Once we spoke to a friend who teaches at a yeshiva and she was just amazed how charter school teachers take their work very seriously. She was very happy to go back to work a few days before September and was telling us she didn’t have much preparation and planning to do and she made it sound like at her school teachers’ workshops aren’t as serious. So yes, there are some teachers that work harder than the others.
Also, my husband works at the charter school each day from7:30-5:30!!! Longer days than yeshiva or public schools! And yet he loves his job and doesn’t complain.
Again, I really don’t see why yeshivas ant include the few days that are erev yom tov.
And for those of you who are teachers in public or yeshiva who complain, don’t go to charter schools if you want it “easier”. Those schools are also not ideal for moms.

amother

Indigo

Sun, Aug 12 2018, 9:49 am

Teachers salaries and all that is a whole other topic, right now we are talking about the school calendar, so I do not know why this is becoming about "you teachers know what you are getting into, we work just as hard", the calendar has NOTHING to do with the teachers.

I am a teacher and I just want to say that I have no idea where you got the impression that teachers have anything to do with the schedules or vacation days or to cancel school when it snows an inch. We are given the schedule just like the parents, and we call the weather hotline just like the parents.
I also have no say when performances/graduations/etc are, I would make them all on sundays if it was up to me.

When I get the schedule and see how many days are off for yomim tovim and random vacation days I actually think of the working parents. I think of them when the preschoolers are off a week before yom tov! I think of them when yom tov falls out entirely during the week. I think of them when there is an inch of snow and school gets cancelled for no reason. I can only imagine how stressful it must be to be running out to work and not knowing if school is going to be starting an hour late or 4 hours late because the hotline keeps saying "call back in an hour". Yes, I do believe that many times the school administration forgets about the working parents. But Is any of this the teachers fault?

One year there were a few snow days in a row, by the 3rd day the snow was not so bad but the administration must have felt school should start late just to be on the safe side. The school sent out a text to all the parents that anyone who has to get to work should send their children to school regular time and they will be watched by a staff member. That staff member was the principal her self. She alone entertained a room full of children so that the working parents would not be inconvenienced. That is thinking of the working parents. Or maybe a bunch of parents spoke up.
So maybe you should start speaking up instead of bashing the teachers on here. Maybe if enough working parents said something than events would take place on sundays or first thing in the morning and the administration would think 5 times before cancelling school.

amother

Burgundy

Sun, Aug 12 2018, 10:25 am

I have taught and also have been a school administrator. I went into teaching because I have the degrees the school needed for a program. They sought me out. I fell in love with being part of the solution rather than just complaining like these parents are.

I am 100% not here to babysit your children. I find the suggestions insulting and demeaning. My passion is to give a quality education. I make less in a year than I used to make in a month in my profession. I assure you that I am at the top of teacher pay.

Who is going to pay the teachers and other workers to watch your kids? Who is going to pay the increase in insurance, utilities, maintenance, lunch, busing, supplies to keep your children babysat while you work?

My school follows the law and has the mandated number of days off the legislative set. We don't have extra money at the end of the year. We run a deficit which we beg parents to make up. Most of our students are on scholarship with a handful of generous wealthy parents contributioning to the school.

Often schools don't have enough money to pay teachers for teaching. Where will they get the money for child minding? The extra days will blow up budgets and deny Jewish children a Jewish education.

I myself have paid the electric bill for DC's school and contributed towards a new building. I will give money for education not babysitting.

If you don't have the money for childcare, what makes you think you will have money for tuition? You are trying to put your responsibilities on others' backs.

amother

Hotpink

Sun, Aug 12 2018, 10:45 am

amother wrote:

Again, every school is different but EVERY SINGLE TIME our parent body freaked out over a date change, no one bothered calling the office to find out why. And guess what? After bad mouthing every school administrator on Facebook and whatapp, someone decided to call and yell in person and when the explanation for the date change was given, the response was a sheepish, oh Ok, I guess that makes sense. Well of course it makes sense! We use our heads!

Now I'm not saying every school administration makes all the right choices, but please don't assume we are all terrible people till you pick up the phone and call.

Orchid

Sun, Aug 12 2018, 12:33 pm

amother wrote:

You do your prep work on Erev YT? Or the week leading up to Pesach?
Many of the days off are not to make up for all the time you spend at home preparing. It's just a perk. Nice if you can get it.

My favorite comment I hear from all my teacher friends, "so what are you doing this summer?" Whatever I do in the winter, buddy.