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Frustrated with our schools
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 4:45 pm
amother wrote:
The bolded is so sad. What happened to wanting to make a difference or passion for your career?


There are of course people like that too.
But everyone does a work/family life balance shikul, and many decide they can't afford to spend their entire work day on work that doesnt pay the bills or provide time off to be with family.
Teachers are people too, even the most passionate usually have kids and a mortgage. Why would an A student go into education if it not only wont pay the bills, but also doesnt have kid friendly vacations and hours? Very few can afford to enter a profession just for the passion, clean of practical considerations.
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 4:53 pm
amother wrote:


What I never understood about Israel is that the girls come home at 1pm? I mean, what do they do the rest of that time?


Schools dont generally finish here at 1 anymore.
Some elementary schools end at 13:30, but all the Torani schools have slightly longer hours.
From grade 7 on, there are longer hours - usually till two thirty or three thirty, depending on day. Specialty schools (including many frum ones) have longer hours.
What do girls do from three o'clock onwards? Homework. Relax. Some work. There's a lot of going out with friends. Dont forget that there are no Sundays here, so that free time is spread out throughout the week (for pupils. Adults are a different story. These days it's very common for Friday to be a day off for adults).
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1091




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 5:09 pm
amother wrote:
OP here. NOPE! There's President's Day. Because that's a super important day I never knew about until my children started attending Yeshiva. No workplace I know of gives that time off, unless you're a postal office, a library, or public school.


OP I happen to agree with much of what you say. There was one year I took off a day a week during the month of June for school events as did my husband. Thankfully most events are now in the evening. (What really annoyed me was that the boys’ events were at night so the fathers could come without having to miss much work but the girls’ events were during the day.) Thankfully the school heard us working moms out and this is no longer an issue.

I do however disagree about federal holidays. I’ve always had off all federal holidays as does my husband - and I’ve worked for a variety of institutions over the years. It’s fairly standard.

It actually bothered me when my kids were little that they had school x-mas and New Years because I was home and would have liked to spend time with them.

I think this illustrates the schools’ dilemma. It’s likely someone will always be inconvenienced..
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 5:14 pm
Almost all school events in Israel are in the evening. Maybe once every few years there is a special day event with parents.
It would drive me nuts if they held parties in the morning.
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 5:15 pm
princessleah wrote:
And to add, the school calendar is set up the way it is because of agricultural time, when kids had to be home during the summer to help with the harvest. (This is a main reason why schools in the US south end earlier than in the north, because the harvest was earlier)
It is no longer applicable!


Actually, that's not true.

http://mentalfloss.com/article.....mmers
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ra_mom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 5:17 pm
I agree OP. We work just to pay the tuition but the schools basically don't allow us to work in order to pay their bills because there's always off days and such intense juggling.
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amother
Yellow


 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 5:20 pm
amother wrote:
Interesting. I don't know if it's fair to only have four weeks off, but I hear you.

What I never understood about Israel is that the girls come home at 1pm? I mean, what do they do the rest of that time?


Wouldn't be fair for who?

In the UK, most schools only have 5 weeks off. Why would anyone need more than that?

Because of this, there's no expensive trend for camp like I read here either. Those who want to go do, but no one feels like they're missing out if they don't.
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iluvy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 5:22 pm
My kids just switched to a school where they give off all federal as well as Jewish holidays. I'm in shock. I guess I should just be happy they haven't yet discovered the Chinese and Muslim calendars.

Last year, my kids' school sent an email a week before the end of school saying, "Actually, we're ending a day earlier than the schedule says." Again -- total shock. They are so off-the-wall clueless about what it means to have a real job, and about the negotiations and arrangements and life-shortening stress they cause with these arbitrary days off -- especially unannounced!
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 5:37 pm
princessleah wrote:
OY! My kids' school is not working-parent friendly AT ALL. Off erev Yom Kippur and erev Pesach. Off Chagim but actually have school chol ha moed sukkot, and chanukah, which phew! Off all of pesach.
Then from Dec. 24th - Jan. 2, off labor day, Memorial day, a full week in February (new! this year! yay) and then another 9 days for pesach.
School day is over at 3:30. For an extra fee, you can participate in "after school," so helpful for working parents, which ends at 4:45!


Sigh.

Do you really work on Labor Day and Memorial Day? Apart from retail and hospitals, these are almost universal holidays in the US.

Kosher schools have to close for Pesach because cleaning the school would be pure h3ll. Can you imagine cleaning out every locker, and every cubby and every desk and every toy in the kindergarten. Then kashering the lunchroom, and worrying about the kid whose parents aren't quite as religious bringing in something questionable.

Schools also pretty much have to close erev chag (which my friend used to call the "cooking day") because too many teachers travel to family for the chag, and would need off.

Having off between Xmas and New Years is common for all American schools other than yeshivas. (Its also narrows your kids' schools down to a very small number.) Its a dead week for a lot of businesses. Its also a very easy week for working parents to get coverage if needed. There are dozens of vacation camps.

President's Week is also very common. Difficult for me, as my husband is an accountant, so we're clearly not vacationing. But if its actually President's Week, again, there are tons of programs available.

And the school day is already long enough. Do you really think that kids should be in school from 8:30 to 6, to accommodate working parents? Could your kids really sit still that long? Would you even want them to?
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teachkids




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 5:39 pm
I'm going to pitch in as a teacher here.

Those erev Yontif days are very necessary for the teachers, both to make Yontif, and to be able to catch their breath so they can continue teaching your child after yontif. Teachers bring home more work at night than you can imagine, so without that day off, we don't have any cooking time. We can't just cook when we get home from work because we're busy planning lessons and grading work, because you're expecting your child to come home with a beautiful project and dvrei Torah.
Additionally, those days end up becoming babysitting because parents start going away. Yes, we can say as much as we want that it's the family's responsibility to make up what they miss, but no teacher wants Yanky to not have a Succos project or know what a lulav is just because his family is going to visit Bubby in Florida for Succos and leaving the day before Erev Yontif. So all our teaching has to be done before we get to those days anyway, so the kids are just coloring an extra project.

Regarding the legal holidays- not every staff member is necessarily Jewish, and they want those days off, and some parents do get those days off and want to spend with their kids. The biggest problem however, is bussing. If there's no bussing, parents don't want to drive their kids. I worked in a school where we did have school on 2 of the legal holidays with no bussing, so parents have to drive. Only a fraction of kids show up because the parents don't want to drive them, classes start half an hour late by the time the kids are all in, and end half an hour early to facilitate dismissal.

Biggest point of all though, the vacations aren't just for the teachers, the kids need them too. As we get farther from the previous vacation, kids get burnt out and need a break, especially if they're in school 6 days a week. We get far more learning done after that day or 2 off than before because everyone is a bit refreshed.

See if your school is willing to have the 7th/8th / highschoolers set up a day camp in school for those days with no school. Then see if your kids are willing to go...

And there's no way the kids can sit any longer. Even to 4 is just too much for them. They're tired and antsy. I consider anything after 3 deadtime in my classroom because their brains are shot. The only thing that would be accomplished by holding them in school longer is burning them out sooner.
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 5:50 pm
I think also there is a problem with the definition of school. Is school there to teach and educate and socialize, or is it there to babysit so you can work?

If it's the former, kids cant study 24/7. This isnt kollel. You cant have thirty plus kids in a classroom till late everyday, all year round. The kids AND the teacher will go crazy.

If OTOH school (at least elementary school) is there to occupy your kids so you can work, then it needs to be rethought. The paradigm needs to change. There need to be fun leisure activities in the late afternoon, and sports and recreation in the summer. Not teaching 24/7, because it's too much, and kids need a balance in their lives.
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amother
Gold


 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 6:01 pm
amother wrote:


Having off between Xmas and New Years is common for all American schools other than yeshivas. (Its also narrows your kids' schools down to a very small number.) Its a dead week for a lot of businesses. Its also a very easy week for working parents to get coverage if needed. There are dozens of vacation camps.


Neither DH or I or most people I know outside of finance have that week off. Considering that 90% of my vacation days go to yomim tovim having to take that week off would be a killer - besides I"m expected to be in the office because I take off so much in September and October and can provide coverage in December.
And who wants to send their kids to camps with 100s of kids run by teens. Its not safe and lcan cause confusion for young children.

amother wrote:

President's Week is also very common. Difficult for me, as my husband is an accountant, so we're clearly not vacationing. But if its actually President's Week, again, there are tons of programs available.


Considering that most schools just had Winter Break and CHanuka break personally I don't see the need for another long weekedn.
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amother
Green


 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 6:06 pm
teachkids wrote:
I'm going to pitch in as a teacher here.

.


and as a teacher, do you see two months in the summer as a necessity? As mentioned, in England, France, Australia, South Africa 5 weeks is considered plenty.

Don't you find that towards the end the kids are fed up? My boys had off 3 weeks and enjoyed every second of it. They are totally ready to go back to school on Sunday. One week day camp, two weeks at home. My girls have been off for 8 weeks already of which 3 weeks was day camp and they don't go back for another two weeks! They are not more ready to go back, they are less ready because they have lazed around for so long that they are out of school mode completely.
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amother
Natural


 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 6:11 pm
Sweepy wrote:
I don't get the "teachers need a break" thing. Bills don't go on vacation for the summer. And no saleswoman/sheitelmacher/lawyer/secretary/graphic designer/doctor/nurse/cleaning lady/Amazoner/photographer/bookkeeper takes 2 months off just because it's hot out. Plus teachers already get more days off between September and June than all of the above.


Just look at all the threads here when there are even a few days off of school and you will see how many parents are deseprate to get rid of their kids again. The teachers are doing that day in and day out. It is one of the most exhausting jobs - physically and mentally. I am not a teacher. I taught for a few years, and I can honestly say that it is the most exhausting type of work I've ever done (and I've worked in high pressure corporate environments).
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 6:28 pm
amother wrote:


Don't you find that towards the end the kids are fed up? My boys had off 3 weeks and enjoyed every second of it. They are totally ready to go back to school on Sunday. One week day camp, two weeks at home. My girls have been off for 8 weeks already of which 3 weeks was day camp and they don't go back for another two weeks! They are not more ready to go back, they are less ready because they have lazed around for so long that they are out of school mode completely.


I agree that two months together might not necessarily be the best option. It might be better to break it up.
I dont think kids should have less vacation time as a sum total though, unless schools are radically changed.
Have any of you sat in a classroom lately for 8+ hours? It is pure torture. I had to do a few days for a course and I went crazy. You cant move, eat, drink, talk. Nothing. The kids cant even go to the bathroom without asking.
Sure, they may have a sport or art class once every day or two, but in general they are tied to their desks.

It is soooooo hard to sit passively and relatively quietly all day. There is a reason why summer vacation is so revered by pupils. It's not stam pinuk, for some it's necessary oxygen.
Now sure some schools are more modern and attempt to grant the kids more freedom, but in general most still expect 8+ hours of sitting still, and that can be quite stifling.
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 6:34 pm
IMO the solution should not be to require elementary schools to be babysitters.

The solution should be to lobby for a lot more mandated vacation time for employees. I think it's in every country's interest to make sure there is a work/ family balance
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 6:37 pm
amother wrote:
Neither DH or I or most people I know outside of finance have that week off. Considering that 90% of my vacation days go to yomim tovim having to take that week off would be a killer - besides I"m expected to be in the office because I take off so much in September and October and can provide coverage in December.

And who wants to send their kids to camps with 100s of kids run by teens. Its not safe and lcan cause confusion for young children. Considering that most schools just had Winter Break and CHanuka break personally I don't see the need for another long weekedn.


I didn't say that most businesses close. I said they're slow. I work, but the phone hardly rings.

And I have no clue why you conflate vacation programs with teens running a warehouse for 100s of kids. I'm talking about professionally run vacation programs. Cooking, theater, music, sports, zoo, chess, lego, robots, you name it.
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amother
Slateblue


 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 6:38 pm
amother wrote:
I think also there is a problem with the definition of school. Is school there to teach and educate and socialize, or is it there to babysit so you can work?

If it's the former, kids cant study 24/7. This isnt kollel. You cant have thirty plus kids in a classroom till late everyday, all year round. The kids AND the teacher will go crazy.

If OTOH school (at least elementary school) is there to occupy your kids so you can work, then it needs to be rethought. The paradigm needs to change. There need to be fun leisure activities in the late afternoon, and sports and recreation in the summer. Not teaching 24/7, because it's too much, and kids need a balance in their lives.


School's purpose is to teach and educate our kids, but it's also part of the framework of society. The modern lifestyle is set up as such as the parents go to work, and the kids are in school during most of those hours. So if there's frequent interruptions to one side of this setup, it creates hardship to the other side of the setup.

Yes, teachers need breaks & yes, students need breaks. But do they really need breaks every 3-4 weeks? If that's true, then the teacher needs to re-evaluate her profession and the student would need some interventions.

And give me a break with all this nonsense about yontif cooking?! When do you think the working moms cooks? They come home late afternoon, do dinner, homework, bedtime etc., when do you think they have a spare minute? Yet, they figure it out. The teacher only works 3-4 hours of the days, and even if she grades papers and does some lesson planning, she has more hours in the day (unless perhaps you're a first year teacher). There's no reason to inconvenience 20-30 mothers per class, just so the one teacher can have a convenient time to cook for yontif.

And what's this about not having school every time it becomes a bit difficult for the teacher? if it's erev yontif and some kids are missing, prepare something extracurricular for the rest of the kids that the other kids won't need to catch up on. And if its Isru Chag, engage the kids in a manner that really peaks their attention. Teaching is a job and it has both good and difficult days. It's really unfair to all the parents for the schools to drop the ball on the difficult days (and then still rationalize it as a necessity for the poor teachers and staff).

Teachers do work hard, very very hard. But so do the rest of us and with the onset of technology, many of us are forced to bring our work home with us too. It's really unfair of the schools to ease their burden on the account of increasing the burden on the already overburdened parents. Teachers overall have many weeks off in the year (10 wk summer, 3 wk pesach, chanukah, midwinter vacation etc..), compared to the paltry 2 weeks off of the average worker. Claiming that teachers must have off on erev Yom Tov, Isru Chag, Fast Days, Shushan Purim etc. to retain their sanity is hyperbole at best, self-serving at the worst, or a sign that someone is in the wrong field.
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teachkids




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 6:42 pm
amother wrote:
I think also there is a problem with the definition of school. Is school there to teach and educate and socialize, or is it there to babysit so you can work?

If it's the former, kids cant study 24/7. This isnt kollel. You cant have thirty plus kids in a classroom till late everyday, all year round. The kids AND the teacher will go crazy.

If OTOH school (at least elementary school) is there to occupy your kids so you can work, then it needs to be rethought. The paradigm needs to change. There need to be fun leisure activities in the late afternoon, and sports and recreation in the summer. Not teaching 24/7, because it's too much, and kids need a balance in their lives.



If you want your kids to be babysat for longer hours, the school is going to have the hire more staff, because the current staff can't take on more hours and more prep and grading, or at least pay them more, raising your tuition which will cause you to complain more.
No teacher went into teaching to babysit kids though. We like teaching, and those babysitting tasks are the worst part of the job. If you stretch teacher's hours, adding in a babysitting hour, you will lose the most qualified teachers, keeping only the ones who are doing it for the money.

Your kids will be happier with hand-picked after school activities or chill time than with structured soccer classes if your kid's a book worm, or study hall if they're a sports kid. This is how many schools work now. They learn till 3:30/4/5 and then there are optional clubs after. Sign your kid up for the ones he wants, and he's taken care of.
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amother
Gold


 

Post Tue, Aug 07 2018, 6:45 pm
amother wrote:
I agree that two months together might not necessarily be the best option. It might be better to break it up.
I dont think kids should have less vacation time as a sum total though, unless schools are radically changed.
Have any of you sat in a classroom lately for 8+ hours? It is pure torture. I had to do a few days for a course and I went crazy. You cant move, eat, drink, talk. Nothing. The kids cant even go to the bathroom without asking.
Sure, they may have a sport or art class once every day or two, but in general they are tied to their desks.

It is soooooo hard to sit passively and relatively quietly all day. There is a reason why summer vacation is so revered by pupils. It's not stam pinuk, for some it's necessary oxygen.
Now sure some schools are more modern and attempt to grant the kids more freedom, but in general most still expect 8+ hours of sitting still, and that can be quite stifling.


I happen to really LOVE the program at my sons' school and I think they do too!
The first half of the summer they have regular school with their rebbe until about 1:00. That includes 1 -2 recesses + lunch. Its also a bit more fun and relaxed then the rest of the year with more games - but they do learn. Then in the afternoon they have a structured camp program with swimming, leagues, projects, trips and entertainment. I find it the best of all worlds.
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