Frustrated with our schools

imorethanamother

Wed, Aug 08 2018, 1:08 am

amother wrote:

Sigh.

Do you really work on Labor Day and Memorial Day? Apart from retail and hospitals, these are almost universal holidays in the US.

Kosher schools have to close for Pesach because cleaning the school would be pure h3ll. Can you imagine cleaning out every locker, and every cubby and every desk and every toy in the kindergarten. Then kashering the lunchroom, and worrying about the kid whose parents aren't quite as religious bringing in something questionable.

Schools also pretty much have to close erev chag (which my friend used to call the "cooking day") because too many teachers travel to family for the chag, and would need off.

Having off between Xmas and New Years is common for all American schools other than yeshivas. (Its also narrows your kids' schools down to a very small number.) Its a dead week for a lot of businesses. Its also a very easy week for working parents to get coverage if needed. There are dozens of vacation camps.

President's Week is also very common. Difficult for me, as my husband is an accountant, so we're clearly not vacationing. But if its actually President's Week, again, there are tons of programs available.

And the school day is already long enough. Do you really think that kids should be in school from 8:30 to 6, to accommodate working parents? Could your kids really sit still that long? Would you even want them to?

First of all, it's not true that these are "universal holidays". More and more of us work in healthcare.

Second of all, most schools spend at least two days before the break making the kids clean (sigh), and then the school sells the building. So the cleaning part isn't why schools have off almost a week before Pesach actually begins.

I don't know anyone traveling who needs that excessive amount of time before Yom Tov either. Let's face it: it's so everyone can shop and cook at leisure while real working families have to do it every night for a month before Pesach begins.

Also, why does everyone keep assuring everyone there's lots of "vacation camps"? We know! They're really expensive!

imorethanamother

Wed, Aug 08 2018, 1:12 am

amother wrote:

I agree that two months together might not necessarily be the best option. It might be better to break it up.
I dont think kids should have less vacation time as a sum total though, unless schools are radically changed.
Have any of you sat in a classroom lately for 8+ hours? It is pure torture. I had to do a few days for a course and I went crazy. You cant move, eat, drink, talk. Nothing. The kids cant even go to the bathroom without asking.
Sure, they may have a sport or art class once every day or two, but in general they are tied to their desks.

It is soooooo hard to sit passively and relatively quietly all day. There is a reason why summer vacation is so revered by pupils. It's not stam pinuk, for some it's necessary oxygen.
Now sure some schools are more modern and attempt to grant the kids more freedom, but in general most still expect 8+ hours of sitting still, and that can be quite stifling.

What you described is the definition of a bad classroom. It's a whole other thread about how our yeshivas haven't quite cottoned on the real Active Learning lesson plans, and whether kids should be in those type of environments is a whole other discussion.

amother

Burlywood

Wed, Aug 08 2018, 1:16 am

I dont know where all of you live or what the teachers' rights are.

In Israel the teachers' union is powerful and they would never agree to chopping off a month of vacation without significantly increasing salary. I mean, would you????

Also, someone said there is such a long line of people waiting to enter teaching that cutting vacation wouldnt affect it. In Israel at least, much of that ( not so long) line is comprised of people who got the lowest scores on their psychometric (SAT). Because they cant get into other fields. Do you think worsening conditions will not affect this even more?

The entrance requirements are so low because otherwise there would not be enough applicants. Your A pupil is going into better paid fields with more chances for advancement.

So few quality teachers enter the field that the government often gives serious incentives for academics or top high school graduates to enter teaching.

But if you only want a babysitter, I guess you dont need a top teacher.

Finally, traditionally schools were never babysitting ventures. It's only recently that parents are demanding this. It's not why they are set up, and they arent equipped for it. Your typical teacher learned how to teach in 45 or 55 min segments, not how to build a whole recreational summer program.

amother

Burlywood

Wed, Aug 08 2018, 1:20 am

imorethanamother wrote:

Having been in the field for thirty years, and supervised hundreds of new teachers myself, I can tell you most lessons everywhere (at least in Israel) are like that. Changing it would require a revolution, and it hasnt come about yet.
Sure today there is more pair work, more group work, less frontal. But the main paradigm hasnt changed.

amother

Gray

Wed, Aug 08 2018, 2:23 am

amother wrote:

I am surprised at the entitled views of people on this thread. Schools are not babysitting services. Their job is to provide your children with an education, not to make sure you never have to watch your kids when it's inconvenient for you.

Yes, you pay a lot of tuition. And still, schools struggle to pay their teachers. They are not pocketing your hard earned money and enjoying the day off at your expense. They charge you for the service they provide. You wouldn't put your kid in public school because you want a frum education. How are the schools supposed to run if they aren't charging enough tuition to pay their expenses?

I understand many mothers have to work in order to pay the bills. But I would like to think that it's only the minority who have such full time, high stress jobs that they can't take the time to watch their own children every now and then, or to attend a Chumash play once a year. It seems to me that people have skewed priorities here.

This year I am paying $80,000 in tuition for five kids. And I'm entitled? I'm entitled because there are - and I counted - 161 days of school this year? I'm not counting early days of dismissal either.

I work in healthcare. As someone else mentioned, do you even realize how hard it is to get someone else to cover your shifts? Do you know what it means when your non-Jewish boss has to google "Shushan purim" because think you're making it up?

And guess what? I used to be a teacher too. Yes, it's a hard, demanding job. But guess what? You went into it because you don't have to explain to your boss what a "tabernacle" is. And you don't have to worry that you'll be written up for patient abandonment for not being able to work. So pat yourself on the back, and if you think it's so hard, then quit and find a job elsewhere.

Skewed priorities? Are you insinuating that wanting more than 161 school days means that I somehow hate my own children? That I deviously rub my hands thinking of the poor, defenseless teachers that I can railroad into watching my kids?

Public school has more school than we do, and that's a problem.

amother

Green

Wed, Aug 08 2018, 2:29 am

Here is another point:

short vacations spread through the year may inconvenience people and be hard for working mothers. if this is what people are complaining about, so maybe you can say entitlement.

Long summer vacations have educational downsides. It is not good for children to take such a long break from learning. This is not about entitlement. It is about chinuch. our schools are supposed to be educating our kids.

To the teacher who said she needs the summer to prepare - I wonder if teachers in America are so much better prepared than teachers in England where there is a much shorter vacation?

in terms of only people who can't get a job in anything else going into teaching in Israel, I don't know which kind of community you belong to but where we live and in our community this is simply not true. Most of the teachers are dedicated, sincere and have gone into chinuch because they want to be in chinuch.

I live in Israel. My girls are home from school by 3 every day. I do see the need for a day here and there where they don't have to get up at the crack of dawn (no Sundays here) but I do not see the need for extended long vacation. My boys on the other hand, finish at 5, and don't get the long vacation...... go figure whether this is for the sake of the kids or not.....

amother

Burlywood

Wed, Aug 08 2018, 2:44 am

amother wrote:

in terms of only people who can't get a job in anything else going into teaching in Israel, I don't know which kind of community you belong to but where we live and in our community this is simply not true. Most of the teachers are dedicated, sincere and have gone into chinuch because they want to be in .

I never said the teachers arent dedicated. I just said they can enter the field of teaching with the most miserable grades because the top pupils arent going into teaching. That's a fact. Check university or college admission requirements.

Some brilliant young adults enter teaching anyway. Yes they are passionate about education, but especially with women, one of the incentives is that they will have quality time with their kids every summer. I hear it all the time, especially now with my own young adult children and their many friends. It is a consideration, like it or not.

Level the playing field, cancel vacations without increasing salaries or the status and respect teachers get - and there will be less reason for people to enter the field.

amother

Burlywood

Wed, Aug 08 2018, 2:54 am

amother wrote:

Skewed priorities? Are you insinuating that wanting more than 161 school days means that I somehow hate my own children? That I deviously rub my hands thinking of the poor, defenseless teachers that I can railroad into watching my kids?

Public school has more school than we do, and that's a problem.

161 days is really low. In Israel I believe the law is 185 days.
However, it isnt enough to compare days. You need to compare hours of classroom time. If you have a school that studies from 8:30-16:30, that's a long school day, and it will statistically be among those with the most instructional hours in the world, even if it's only 161 days.

amother

Burlywood

Wed, Aug 08 2018, 3:21 am

Just to compare different systems:

Finland has one of the best education systems in the world. They score top on international exams.
They only accept 7% of applicants entering the field. Yes, you read that right. Acceptance doesn't necessarily rest on grades, but more on personality etc. It's a very competitive field, and teachers need advanced degrees.
Teachers stay in the field till retirement. It's a career full of respect and it pays relatively very well. Compare this to places like Israel, where a third of the teachers abandon the field within ten years.

Maybe some of their satisfaction is derived from the fact that they are viewed as educators, not babysitters. School ends at two, and since most parents there work, there is an option of staying in playgrounds until four. Playgrounds supervised by attendants, not by teachers.
The kids learn about 4 hours a day. Not eight. (They are physically at school about 5 or 5.5 hours).
The maximum amount of days in a school year there is 190, but usually it is far less. Multiply by the short school day and you have a lot less instruction time than in US schools.

Of course the teachers stay at school longer than 4 hours, but it's to prep etc. They aren't there to watch your kids all day. And these statistics show that kids don't need to study 9 hours a day all year to succeed. On the contrary, it harms their development IMO. They should be playing.

My4Jewels

Wed, Aug 08 2018, 6:28 am

Pretty presumptuous that teachers went into teaching so that they dont have to explain about jewish religious days off to their bosses. None of my teacher friends have said that this was their reason for going into teaching

And right back at ya..if you dont like explaining to your boss about jewish holidays and it's just too difficult to find coverage then go find another job too. One that allows you to take off when needed without such difficulty.

See how ridiculous your suggestion is.

This is how the yeshiva system works..pros and cons.

amother wrote:

amother

Green

Wed, Aug 08 2018, 7:13 am

amother wrote:

one of the incentives is that they will have quality time with their kids every summer. I hear it all the time, especially now with my own young adult children and their many friends. It is a consideration, like it or not.

I don't get this from two sides
a) if they spend all summer preparing, how do they entertain their kids and prepare?
b) are you telling me that teachers spend the summer with their kids and there are no teachers kids in camps? I can't believe that

saw50st8

Wed, Aug 08 2018, 7:15 am

amother wrote:

Wow, this is pretty obnoxious. But let me spell it out for you.

Between the start of school and the end of school, my kids have off 32 days of which 4 overlap with my days of. Keep in mind that this doesn't include summer where there are 2 weeks between camp and school. Since I've been at my job 13 years, I now get 18 days off. That's a deficit of 14 days that I need coverage for and doesn't include my kids getting sick. My husband has even less vacation days.

Is school a babysitting service? No, but they also should be cognizant that some days parents need coverage more than their kids educated.

I'm very fortunate that I have a flexible boss and can work overtime and bank the hours as time instead of money. I also have my mom and sister in town. When school is closed and I have to pay for someone, it's roughly $20/hr for 8 hours. It's a fortune. If you add up all the days I would have to pay someone (28 days * $20 * 8), it's $4500 extra. That means it's time for me to ask for a scholarship because it puts me in the red.

In case you think $4500 is nothing, that's on top of the $40,000 I pay for school, $9,000 I pay for aftercare and $10,000 I pay to send my kids to summer camp because I'm working full time. That's after tax money.

I actually love being with my kids. Shabbos and Sundays are the absolute best part of my week. If I could be home with them, I would. I took off almost a year to be with my kids when I gave birth and kept them home with me (ages 3, 1.5 and newborn) because I love being with them. It's not about skewed priorities.

amother

Puce

Wed, Aug 08 2018, 8:01 am

amother wrote:

I can't speak for others, but I did not go into teaching so that I could spend time with my kids in the summer. Someone who wants to do that would be better off taking a non-teaching position in a school. I teach because I believe in it. I send my kids to camp because I can't entertain them and prepare at the same time.

amother

Powderblue

Wed, Aug 08 2018, 8:44 am

saw50st8- is that amount of days off typical for your field? I believe my dh gets 21 days at a secular work place that he just started at (he has years of experience, just not at that particular company), granted we are pretty sure he gets 0 paternity leave but in a previous company I think there was something like 8 weeks paternity leave- too bad I didn't get pregnant then Sad

I honestly don't think the two sides contradict each other. I think vacation is super important for kids.

I am a SAHM and I have no problem "teaching" my kids as things come up during the summer be it math, science or grammer. If anything I feel like the summer is a great opportunity to "teach" them, take them to a farm, science museum... I have no concerns of them slipping back educationally.

It's true that in camp I don't feel that they are "learning" so much since frum camps can't be "specific" since they have a smaller clientelle. I wish I could send my kids to a frum farm camp or something but they don't exist where I live so we've been doing a lot of mommy camp.

I also have no problem hanging out with my kids on their days off.

That doesn't change the fact the fact that tuition is expensive and for many people the wife is working in order to pay that tuition. If the wife is working have lots of random days off during the year makes it difficult for her to do her job. The school should be cognizant of that.

amother

Goldenrod

Wed, Aug 08 2018, 10:08 am

I love these teacher vs every other profession discussions. I've done both. I started out teaching and then switched to another profession. There are pros and cons to each, but ultimately, the cons of teaching outweighed the pros for me and I would never go back even though yes, I no longer have summers off and a conveniently matching schedule to my kids. I think schools could definitely be more cognizant of families having 2 full time working parents. Some things really wouldn't be that hard to implement. But yeah, teachers are going to get some perks to make up for their lower salaries, and I'm not going to begrudge them that. If you think teachers have it made, you're more than welcome to quit your job and become a teacher. If you're a teacher who thinks everyone else has it made, you're more than welcome to quit your job and do something else. The truth is, every job has its difficulties, and every job has its perks. One way isn't intrinsically more difficult than the other.

amother

Silver

Wed, Aug 08 2018, 10:44 am

I agree with OP, but that's the choice we make when we send to yeshiva. But yes, it's frustrating. My kids were already off for days before Pesach????? WHY??? I wish I had that luxury. I work every erev chag bc I already have to take off for the actual yom tov and I can't take off even more days. Cooking gets done haphazardly somehow nights or quickly before chag, or well I can cook on chag. Don't even ask what my Fridays look like.......

Jewish lifestyle is very difficult if you work in the secular world. It's like geared towards keeping everyone in the community also for work.
Just my two cents.......

amother

Gray

Wed, Aug 08 2018, 11:23 am

amother wrote:

Thank you. That's the crux of the issue. There's this ivory tower issue where all these people in their isolated environments decide that there should be few school days because it's inconvenient for them otherwise.

It would be nice if administration worked in the real world. They don't, and they frequently employ their own spouses and family members, so there's never any perspective.

amother

Gray

Wed, Aug 08 2018, 11:29 am

amother wrote:

I've read all these same studies, but to be honest, what is Finland being graded on? It's a small country, mostly homogeneous, being compared specifically to math and reading with other, larger, heterogenous countries. They're looking at different parameters. The average Jewish parent sending to a Yeshiva cares equally about amassing a broad spectrum of knowledge - something these education tests don't measure.

They also discussed that the main reason Finland is so successful as compared to, say, the US, is because of their welfare system. All kids are fed and don't live in abject poverty, which can affect performance.