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Forum -> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
Schools accepting children with Behavioral Issues



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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 14 2018, 1:05 pm
This thread is sparked by the discussions of whether schools should be taking children who can't pay full tuition and why or why not.

I've wondered if schools would be validated to choose not to accept a child with behavioral issues. Add, odd, other non diagnosed "issues".
Especially if they have other children waiting to come to the school.
I understand why a school would make such a choice. Such a child really could strain the schools resources.
On the other hand, my heart bleeds for the child.
I'm talking about a scenario where the resources the child can get from the State is not sufficient for the child.
I want to hear others perspective.
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amother
Copper


 

Post Tue, Aug 14 2018, 1:13 pm
As someone who's BTDT, I'd rather the school be honest about their capabilities from the start. If they can't offer the necessary support, or make the effort to work with a supportive team (district or hired privately), best they should be honest from the start. Yes, it hurts to hear, and schools should definitely be kind about it, but it's anyway better for the child to be in an appropriate setting that can manage them. BH, we were fortunate to find a yeshiva that can accommodate this child and don't need to go the public school route. And BH for our first choice school that agonized over the decision but ultimately said they were sorry, they didn't think they could make it work, and suggested we look into where we are now.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 14 2018, 1:19 pm
Many kids with behavioral problems are not accepted into yeshiva. They don't have adequate resources to handle certain kids. That's ok. Schools can't accept everyone. I think many schools nowadays are able to accommodate a really wide spectrum of kids though.
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mha3484




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 14 2018, 1:24 pm
I think this is an extremely complicated topic that touches my life significantly. I can only speak for ADHD because that is what I know but these are my thoughts.

A child with ADHD has every right to be educated to learn torah and do mitzvos and if every yeshiva says not my problem these children will be relegated to a life without a Jewish education. To me this is just so sad. Children with ADHD are smart, kind wonderful kids who can do great when given the proper support.

Personally, this summer, I had to make some significant educational changes for my child who is has ADHD and it was the hardest decision I have had to make. His Yeshiva strongly encouraged us to place him a therapeutic school that has an extremely low level of Judaic studies because they felt they can not meet his needs. My child happens to be exceptionally bright so he can catch up but many kids cant. Once they are ready for a mainstream class they are so far behind in limudei kodesh they will drown in a yeshiva if the yeshiva will even take them. Imagine telling a small child this is it for you. You dont deserve a jewish education for reasons that you cant control in the slightest.

I am in a large OOT community which has resources even if its not what I would prefer. If you go somewhere smaller this type of school does not exist so you are telling these boys that they get a life of public school because a yeshiva prefers to take the kids without any issues at all.
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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 14 2018, 1:28 pm
Like I said in my op this is sparking a conversation for me.

Why is it OK for a school to be honest that they can't accept a child because they don't have the resources, but its not OK for a school to not be able to afford another scholarship child.
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flowerpower




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 14 2018, 1:32 pm
saw50st8 wrote:
Many kids with behavioral problems are not accepted into yeshiva. They don't have adequate resources to handle certain kids. That's ok. Schools can't accept everyone. I think many schools nowadays are able to accommodate a really wide spectrum of kids though.



They totally are. I am amazed at how much the teachers are trained to deal with it as opposed to a decade ago.

I think a school should accept the child if they have the resources and ability to do so.


Last edited by flowerpower on Tue, Aug 14 2018, 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mha3484




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 14 2018, 1:32 pm
I think also a lot of this is community specific. In some larger communities kids with different issues still have options to be in a Jewish program to remediate their issues and mainstream them. So parents who know their kids have ADHD etc can find a school that will work for their kid if the mainstream yeshiva wont. The issue to me is communities where that does not exist. Those kids really suffer.
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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 14 2018, 1:38 pm
mha3484 wrote:
I think this is an extremely complicated topic that touches my life significantly. I can only speak for ADHD because that is what I know but these are my thoughts.

A child with ADHD has every right to be educated to learn torah and do mitzvos and if every yeshiva says not my problem these children will be relegated to a life without a Jewish education. To me this is just so sad. Children with ADHD are smart, kind wonderful kids who can do great when given the proper support.

Personally, this summer, I had to make some significant educational changes for my child who is has ADHD and it was the hardest decision I have had to make. His Yeshiva strongly encouraged us to place him a therapeutic school that has an extremely low level of Judaic studies because they felt they can not meet his needs. My child happens to be exceptionally bright so he can catch up but many kids cant. Once they are ready for a mainstream class they are so far behind in limudei kodesh they will drown in a yeshiva if the yeshiva will even take them. Imagine telling a small child this is it for you. You dont deserve a jewish education for reasons that you cant control in the slightest.

I am in a large OOT community which has resources even if its not what I would prefer. If you go somewhere smaller this type of school does not exist so you are telling these boys that they get a life of public school because a yeshiva prefers to take the kids without any issues at all.


I'm sorry that this topic is painful. I appreciate your insight.
I think we and the schools all feel trapped.
1) to accept every student
2) to give scholarships to whoever needs
3) to keep tuition low for everyone else
4) to provide services and resources for every kid.

So what do we as a community do?

Expecting schools to hire more staff and train the staff will hike up tuition.
So how much can we expect? Especially out of NY/NJ where it may be harder to get BOE services in a yeshiva classroom.
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amother
Copper


 

Post Tue, Aug 14 2018, 1:45 pm
Yes, I think the real issue here is the lack of appropriate yeshiva environments for these kids. We have special yeshiva programs for kids with intellectual or cognitive impairments. We have yeshiva programs for kids with learning disabilities. There are very few programs available for kids who don't really have academic challenges (often even far ahead of their peers in that department) but do not have the social and behavioral skills to function in a mainstream classroom without significant support. So yes, we shouldn't be writing off these kids. Every Jewish child deserves a Torah education. But we can't just demand that yeshivas "be more accepting". More should be done, and existing yeshivas should be part of the solution. In addition to special schools, perhaps more yeshivas can make room for inclusion programs. But we need to create more for these kids, not just plunk them in a mainstream classroom with a shadow.
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amother
Peach


 

Post Tue, Aug 14 2018, 4:20 pm
Most Schools are not equipped to deal with issues. Ds has been struggling for years.
The boe evaluation entitles him to services, which he rarely got. And no one can force a private school to provide them.
The yeshiva doesn't have qualified special ed teachers, let alone regular teachers. (Another son had 4 different teachers for 1 subject this year bec they quit or were fired. And that was in a "regular" class they couldn't deal with.)

So how can they accommodate ADHD, learning disabilities etc?
The reality is they cannot.
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mha3484




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 14 2018, 4:25 pm
When my son had a full eval the Psychologist told me straight up that his yeshiva does a great job with learning, sensory and mild ADHD but has a ways to come in the areas of more severe adhd and non specified behavior problems. He says they are trying but just are not there yet. Its nice to know they can handle some issues but I wish they were the ones that pertained to me lol.
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amother
Firebrick


 

Post Tue, Aug 14 2018, 5:47 pm
The jewish schools ive been involved with usually give parents with behavior problems especially if they are getting a scholarship, a hard time. But, they will accept the behavior problem kids of rich boardmembers so the reality is that yeshivas are equipped to deal with them but bec they are selective, they try to take top kids first.

However, I know someone who works in public schools and they are putting a lot of behavioral/adhd kids in regular classes because they cant afford to hire so many special ed teachers. The principals want to spendvthe money on afterschool programs and technology/consultants instead of more for kids. Even public school kids who were written ieps to be in self contained classes are being put in regular ed classes bec principals get iep teachers to change iep to only get setts (and many setts teachers are pulled for subbing...)...so the truth is most schools are not equipped to deal with behavior problems/adhd....and only the really really severe kids are put into special ed in public school.

At the end of the day"", a lot of kids cant sit and learn the way everyonelse does, but doe even closed vocational schools and a lot of kids need it. I think darchei torah has a high school for kids who are not as well suited fir regular classrooms suchthat its more vocational but I would love for my son to gi there but I heard its hard to get in if u dont live in far rockaway????

I dont think this issue will be solved anytime soon especially with new common core which is already harder than previous curriculum and so many students were not even on level before this new curriculum.
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oneofakind




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 14 2018, 7:21 pm
Bottom line is that if a school accepts a child with behavior issues, wealthy family or not, and the child spends most of his/her time being punished or roaming the hallways, they are not getting a proper education and they are developing low self esteem from being the "bad kid". If they can't /won't handle such a kid properly, it's no mitzva to take them even if it makes the parents happy.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 14 2018, 11:34 pm
It depends how acute the behavioral issues are and what resources the school has..

When my 22 yr old was 6, many people actually told me to keep him home for 2 years and he'll outgrow it. They also claimed there weren't enough children in Lakewood to warrant a special school.. He had to go to a behavior modification module of a PS, where he did phenomenally well the first year with a very tough, but loving middle aged lady. The second year, he had a girl right out of college and it was a disaster. He had her wrapped around his finger..

Ultimately, a Jewish Private School helped him a lot.. Unfortunately, it started out at 40k a year, which the state paid most of. Then, 2 years later it went up to 70k, so it was back to PS..

My younger son was VERY wild and out of control in several Lakewood yeshivas. An excellent therapist, and child study team, recommended YNJ.. In three months they calmed him down. He graduated at the top of his class in HS, and is doing very well in College and learning now...
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 14 2018, 11:46 pm
The two issues are apples and oranges.

One is about finances, influence, power, etc. as well as the school budget issues.

The other is about medical and behavioral needs. BTDT, add me to the club.

Last year DD went to a public charter school that specializes in behavior issues. She started getting A's in her subjects for the first time in her life, and actually looked forward to going to class. These teachers are highly trained and qualified to handle out of the box kids, whether they are very bright, or falling behind. The classes are not broken down my year, but rather by skill level. You'll have 9th graders and 12th graders in the same algebra class, for instance.

What we need to see, is for the gadolim of our times to come together and DEMAND that there are schools for our special children, and not just remedial subjects. They need to keep in mind the very bright students who have challenges as well.

Until the people at the top get involved, it won't happen. Parents are generally not equipped to start a home school group in this case. When a big name rabbi has a special needs kid, what do they do? We need to find these rabbis and get them on our side.
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bigsis144




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 14 2018, 11:50 pm
I don’t have much to add as I have just started this parsha with my 5.5 year old, who will be attending public school due to lack of resources in our OOT frum day school and no other alternatives.

It just makes me feel less alone to see other people’s stories. So, thank you to all the posters who are sharing their experiences, both their frustrations and successes.

I am davening for my child in a way I have never davened before, it’s amazing what I took for granted...
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 15 2018, 12:53 am
amother wrote:
The jewish schools ive been involved with usually give parents with behavior problems especially if they are getting a scholarship, a hard time. But, they will accept the behavior problem kids of rich boardmembers so the reality is that yeshivas are equipped to deal with them but bec they are selective, they try to take top kids first.

That's not the reality I've seen. I've seen schools who are NOT equipped to take kids with these challenges, but the rich boardmembers or whoever have some extreme hangup about admitting that their kids have issues or C"V letting anyone find out about their issues, so they put pressure on the school, the school takes them even though it's not appropriate, and the kid gets special treatment instead of the actual help he needs. Not jealous.
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amother
Powderblue


 

Post Wed, Aug 15 2018, 11:32 am
In an ideal society, there would be a place for every child with every kind of challenge in every community. However, that is not the case practically. The best one can expect is that a school is honest about the institution's ability to deal with a child's specific challenge.

I've been employed by an OOT school almost since its inception. The school takes nearly everyone; after all, it's the only game in town. However, when a child with significant challenges joins the school, the administration sits down with the parents and draws a line in the sand:
1. This is what our school is capable of providing your child
2. This is what we cannot provide at this time
3. This is what we need you to provide if your child is to thrive in this environment
4. If you cannot be a partner with us and provide what we ask you to provide, we may have to ask you to remove your child under certain circumstances (usually, only if the child's challenges are adversely affecting the school's population in a significant way).
5. These parameters will change and evolve as your child grows, and we will meet regularly to discuss his/her needs, and you need to make yourselves and any information we need available whenever necessary.

This isn't a perfect situation. Some parents have removed their child from the school after hearing this. Others have been asked to remove their child after it was made clear that the situation was adversely affecting other students and teachers (usually very extreme -- violence, etc.) However, the school is being honest with the parents, and if the parents are being honest with the school and themselves, and truly want what's best, they usually are happy to comply.
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saw50st8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Aug 16 2018, 7:01 am
amother wrote:
The jewish schools ive been involved with usually give parents with behavior problems especially if they are getting a scholarship, a hard time. But, they will accept the behavior problem kids of rich boardmembers so the reality is that yeshivas are equipped to deal with them but bec they are selective, they try to take top kids first.

However, I know someone who works in public schools and they are putting a lot of behavioral/adhd kids in regular classes because they cant afford to hire so many special ed teachers. The principals want to spendvthe money on afterschool programs and technology/consultants instead of more for kids. Even public school kids who were written ieps to be in self contained classes are being put in regular ed classes bec principals get iep teachers to change iep to only get setts (and many setts teachers are pulled for subbing...)...so the truth is most schools are not equipped to deal with behavior problems/adhd....and only the really really severe kids are put into special ed in public school.

At the end of the day"", a lot of kids cant sit and learn the way everyonelse does, but doe even closed vocational schools and a lot of kids need it. I think darchei torah has a high school for kids who are not as well suited fir regular classrooms suchthat its more vocational but I would love for my son to gi there but I heard its hard to get in if u dont live in far rockaway????

I dont think this issue will be solved anytime soon especially with new common core which is already harder than previous curriculum and so many students were not even on level before this new curriculum.


The wealthy parents general have the resources to intervene in ways poor parents can't. Need a shadow in the classroom? No problem. Need more OT for sensory issues? No problem. Need to install a sensory gym in the school so the kid can get services in the middle of the day? No problem. Etc etc etc.

If the school knows that the parents can afford resources that will help the kid stay in their classroom and won't overstress the already stressed school budget, it's a lot easier to keep the kids.

This isn't some nefarious plot to kick out poor kids.
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