Really genuinely seriously just want to know

mommy3b2c

Mon, Aug 20 2018, 2:55 pm

Metukah wrote:

Do you really, honestly believe that any of those reasons are valid excuses to hurt a fellow human being. Do you think that response will have a leg to stand on in the next world when you are asked why you transgressed 'לא תונו איש את עמיתו'?

I am actually pained when I see or hear about my children being mean to another child (and I am talking about children as young as 3/4 year olds. Not teenagers.). My children know that they can have the best report card and the teacher at pta can say that they are the best in the class, but, if their midos are not top, it all means nothing to me.

How do parents expect their children to have good midos if thy don't behave nicely themselves?

Exactly. So many people gave me so many excuses this summer. It’s all a bunch of bullsh*t. So what if EVERYONE does it?? So what if this is bungalow colony life?? When will people learn to stand up and say that something is wrong and they won’t take part in doing something wrong?

The answer is, they won’t learn. They are to busy trying to hard to fit in themselves to try and make a change.

I for one will not take part in it. It disgusts me.

If I really wanted to, I could have gone on some trips this summer, but I can’t bring myself to hang out with such people.

amother

Teal

Mon, Aug 20 2018, 3:44 pm

amother wrote:

Spinoff of a couple of other threads.

1. If you left someone out of op conversation /lunch etc at a bungalow colony, why did you do it?

2. If you deliberately come very late to an invitation like 7 broches, why do you do that?

You can be anonymous. I'm mot judging. Well maybe I AM but I don't want to. I'm sure there is another side to the story. Please help me understand. I find when understand where someone else is coming from it is easier to accept and even embrace the way that they are different.

(an example. DH always leaves sink plugs upside down. Drove me nuts. Then he explained that it is so the water can drain out from the little lip thingy at the top. So now it doesn't bother me at all anymore, in fact I do the same thing.)

I know there are people who are habitually late to every single thing, and was told by a therapist it’s a subconscious rebellion and act of hostility. Funny but the same relative of mine who’s always late also excludes people from conversations. I find her very stuck up and don’t know what her problem is.

amother

Teal

Mon, Aug 20 2018, 3:46 pm

amother wrote:

I come deliberately late because the culture is to come late. I have been stuck waiting an hour every single time I come on time. When the chuppah is called for 7:30, and you are the only guest at 9:00, you learn to do as the Romans.

I haven't frozen anyone out of conversations, but I have seen this happen. The person may be annoying or have non-responsive conversations or they just give a monologue without conversing. I politely listen until the person is finished. We have a neighbor who the ladies just ignore because she is so annoying.

But THEN you’re contributing to the problem of “the culture,” instead of helping it, and that allows it to continue. I think it’s terrible that nothing starts on time and I always try to be punctual and I get irritated at people who show up late by more than a few minutes.

amother

Honeydew

Mon, Aug 20 2018, 4:39 pm

amother wrote:

1. I'm not the most outgoing of people and it can be hard for me to make sure everyone is included in the conversation I'm a part of. I make an effort most of the time because I know the feeling of being left on the side but there are some times that it just slips by me. I don't leave people out on purpose but I can't say I am always on top of making sure everyone has a part.

2. I have a baby, can't afford a babysitter for every simcha. So I put him to sleep and then get dressed and go. Which means I'm always late. But I am doing my best. I want to be there and this is the only way I can make it work. I hope no one gets upset that I'm always late, the alternative is not going.

amother

White

Mon, Aug 20 2018, 7:29 pm

watergirl wrote:

I think they know what they are doing.

I BH have a small group of close friends where I live, like 2 other ladies (BH many more friends out of town). A few friends but not close. Its not a lot but its fine. But they dont go to the same shul as me and they dont send their kids to the same schools that I do. I have serious social anxiety (I have anxiety in general) and events like the PTA mother's tea and shul kiddushes are crippling for me, but I try to go.

One year, an old neighbor who I was friendly with was at the tea. I walked up to her, took a breath, and said hi, how are you etc. We made small talk and then I asked her if she wanted to be my "date" because we were both there alone. She said "oh, I already have a date". So I said, can I be a third? She literally said "we have a third also". No “come join us”. FINE I got the hint. I sat down at an empty table and this woman happened to sit there also, across from me. Her date and "third" were next to me with a few others literally sat with their backs to me and ignored my attempts at joining the conversation. It was nothing short of cruel. I know that she has no issues with me at all and when we were neighbors, we'd hang out, she'd invite me to her house for social things, etc. This was just mean. And the other women at the packed table also seemed to have gone out of their way to ignore me.

At my shul (honestly I stopped going to this one because of snobs), there are a few women who I am friendly with and talk to at kiddush. There are a few women who are just nasty and on many occasions have come up to me and another friend who I was talking to and replaced me in the conversation. Even when I try to assert myself back in, it doesn't work and I just walk away. Thats not cool, and its not what you are supposed to do to someone. Its on the friend to reassert the original conversation and welcome the third in.

I am a person who feels the pain of the other women at the park on shabbos who is sitting alone and join her and make a conversation with her. I am socially anxious but not awkward, and I imagine others feel the same way that I do, so I gather courage and force myself to be friendly. I teach my kids to reach out also on on Purim I have my kids davka give mm to kids who are not their friends. I encourage my kids to make playdates with new kids... my guess is that other moms dont do this.

Middle school never really ended.

I literally had tears in my eyes reading this post- disgusting how frum ppl could act like this. I feel like singing the song to them- "I am an ancient wall of stone" from Marvelous Middos Machine explaining to them that Sinas Chinam is the reason that Mashiach is not here. As a teen, I was a counselor in several bungalow colonies and was disgusted by the behavior of the married yentish ladies.

amother

Oak

Mon, Aug 20 2018, 7:43 pm

I don't really consider it mean to not include someone. Where does it end? Can you ever do something with just one or two people or a small group? Must everything be wide open to all?

This goes both ways for me, by the way. I don't feel like anyone is obligated to include me either. I'm happy for them that they're having a good time.

I don't understand why we have to hang out with people we don't like. Be polite, sure, but more than that?

If someone said, "can I sit with you" I definitely wouldn't say no, but would I actively try to include someone in a conversation with people they don't know and have no connection to? a) how would I even know that person wants to be included? I certainly wouldn't want to be. b) Now the conversation is ruined for everyone else. And yes, this does count.

I guess my question is two-fold:

1. Why would anyone want to be included where they're clearly not wanted?

2. Where does the "include everyone at all times" end?

amother

Pearl

Mon, Aug 20 2018, 7:52 pm

Maybe I am one of 'those'
Yes, I am a bit insecure. Yes, I am shy. Yes, I am socially anxious, and somewhat awkward. And YES I know nine of the above excuses this kind of behaviour, and it is something I work on.
One time I went to a Simcha, I was pretty panicky because I hate crowds, and didn't know the Baal Simcha well. I sat at a table with some friends, some who I wasn't close with at all, as well as a close friend. I was talking to some other people at the table, and was really relieved to be having a smooth conversation, then I became aware that my good friend must be uncomfortable ( for some of the same reasons I was) and to make matters worse the conversation I was having was one that she couldn't join ( pregnancy, but she was very early on and wasn't telling people yet). But I was so relieved to be having a friendly conversation, that I couldn't bring myself to stop, and couldn't figure out how to change the topic... I felt really bad.
I have also been on the flip side, and try to be Dan lechaf zechus on the offending person. Once I was talking with two other ladies, when the conversation turned to something that turned out to be sensitive and personal for one of them. She apparently wasn't comfortable having the conversation in front of me, and was trying to crowd me out. She whispered over my head to the other lady. I had been being obtuse about it ( thinking back maybe that wasn't so nice on my part..) and hanging around but I was so hurt by the whisper that I just left. Tried saying goodbye, but neither of them noticed. I don't think either of them realized they were offensive ( though I'm sure if I would have told them. They would have gotten it, and been more conscious in the future). I think in this case it was thoughtlessness, coupled with stress.

So to end my rambling post. It is never excusable, but always has a motivation. Different every time. Most people aren't obnoxious, some are clueless, some aren't the best at navigating social situations, or other. We just need to be Dan lechaf zechus when we see this happen. Be conscious of our own behavior - and if we think it'll be well received we can point t it out to someone who we saw do it, in a sensitive way.

amother

Pearl

Mon, Aug 20 2018, 8:03 pm

amother wrote:

1.no one wants to be included where they are 'clearly not wanted.' but how would you feel if you were told you were not wanted, or if it was insinuated? That feels awful!
2. You don't need to include everyone at all times, you do need to treat everyone nicely, and respectfully.
...and re: the bolded part, a. you don't know if the person wants to be included or not. Give her an in, if she wants to be included she'll take it. If not, leave her be. B. Why does including someone unfamiliar ruin the conversation for everyone else? Sometimes a new person can bring a new interesting angle.

watergirl

Mon, Aug 20 2018, 8:03 pm

amother wrote:

1. Its all of our obligations to make sure this never happens. No one should ever be “clearly not wanted”. If you are in a public space (ie not your home) and someone is near you, you need to do the right thing and make sure she feels welcome. If she isn't welcome - do it anyways. So your conversation is ruined. Big deal. Better that someone’s heart is ruined?

Think of the woman who is new to town. Her husband convinces her to take the kids to the local shabbos park because it seems like a good place to make friends in the new town. She takes a deep breath and says “can I sit with you” and then is ignored. You cant imagine how she would feel? Do you think she’ll try again next shabbos? You cant say “hi, I’m amother brown, this is amother purple, and this is amother green. We’ve been talking about the new fall shoes. Are you new in town? Whats your thought on the new fall shoes?” . All because your precious conversation is more important than someone’s feelings?

Do you have to announce your dinner plans to everyone in a 5 mile radius? Of course not. Should you be making dinner plans infront of amother brown and not invite her? No. See the difference?

I was “clearly not wanted” at the pta tea that I mentioned. I moved on and found a place to sit. Group of “mean girls” came to my empty table and sat with their backs to me and made me feel horrible. Thats ok?

4pom

Mon, Aug 20 2018, 8:40 pm

amother wrote:

Wow. This actually shocks me.

I guess you are explaining the rationale.
Heres the deal.
Life is about more than staying in your comfort area.
What is the definition of Ahavas Yisroel and chesed? As Rebetzen Heller says. Theres 3 specific aspects. To actually do. Not just stay in your comfortable place. But there are mitzvos to do. To make other people feel good.
You seem to not know the concept of being an outsider. Whether someone newly moved. Or. The extreme. Where the mitzvah is doubled to the yosom and almanah.
Not everyone has a place to belong and we strive to make others feel comfortable.
Its part of growing up. Going to new high-school/ camp: new community where you know noone. And once you know how that feels its more likely you appreciate warmth and friendship extended. And learn to give it further.
To be dan lekaf zechus-
It seems to me that all these people ( I would honestly choose to never acquaint myself with) who are still like this as adults, seem to have less life experience. So maybe they havent learned.