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Really genuinely seriously just want to know
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amother
Rose


 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 9:08 pm
4pom wrote:
Wow. This actually shocks me.

I guess you are explaining the rationale.
Heres the deal.
Life is about more than staying in your comfort area.
What is the definition of Ahavas Yisroel and chesed? As Rebetzen Heller says. Theres 3 specific aspects. To actually do. Not just stay in your comfortable place. But there are mitzvos to do. To make other people feel good.
You seem to not know the concept of being an outsider. Whether someone newly moved. Or. The extreme. Where the mitzvah is doubled to the yosom and almanah.
Not everyone has a place to belong and we strive to make others feel comfortable.
Its part of growing up. Going to new high-school/ camp: new community where you know noone. And once you know how that feels its more likely you appreciate warmth and friendship extended. And learn to give it further.
To be dan lekaf zechus-
It seems to me that all these people ( I would honestly choose to never acquaint myself with) who are still like this as adults, seem to have less life experience. So maybe they havent learned.


You are harsh.
I very much related to that amother's depiction.

Watergirl, in the situation with the event and her declining you as a "date", I could have been that woman. I sometimes don't pick up on social clues and if someone is asking to be the "third", I would answer honestly that someone else is the third. If you had asked me to join you all, I would say "Sure." But I'm not sure I would have the awareness to invite you along if you hadn't asked straight out.

I also have a hard time transitioning and if I made up to go with my sister, I would have a hard time taking along a friend too. It's a certain compartmentalization in my head where I keep relationships separate and having them both at the same time (or any other two totally different acquaintances) would throw me off.

So if I freeze someone out of a conversation, it's not because if my low self-esteem (which I my possibly have), but because I have a hard time multi-tasking social niceties. If I was talking to someone about something, I want to finish talking to her (hear her opinion, have her finish listening to my story, whatever...) before I acknowledge another joinee.

It's completely my problem, and I know it may appear as hurtful to someone else, but it's not like I naturally have it in me, so while I'm working on being gracious and including people who may not ask me explicitly, in the meantime, people may feel like I'm ignoring them. Really I'm just readying myself to welcome them. Or may not even realize I should acknowledge their arrival because my brain hasn't told me yet. Logically I *know* I should do it, but it's not instinct, so I appear standoff-ish until I remember my manners.

I hope I clarified why this happens at least some of the time. As for the bungalow colony thread, where it's repeatedly the same people excluding the same other people? No words for that.
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amother
White


 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 9:37 pm
When I was younger in Camp my counselors taught us an amazing concept called "make room for Shani" or pick any name. Which meant that whenever we were a bunch of us were sitting in a circle on the floor we should always leave an empty space in case someone wants to sit down. This way they wouldn't even have to feel uncomfortable joining the circle by asking everyone else to make room for them. I feel like if the kids would learn this when they're little it would become instinctive to automatically include others and not to exclude.
Also people that never went to a bungalow colony cannot understand the concept of how people are snotty people can be. Keep in mind, these ladies are literally doing nothing all day except relaxing on chairs and schmoozing. They barely have any responsibilities and therefore this is how they spend the bulk of their day. So to exclude someone from joining ur circle for hours of talking simply because you don't want to talk to them is extremely mean


Last edited by amother on Mon, Aug 20 2018, 10:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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causemommysaid




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 9:53 pm
Two people here tried to explain the rationale behind excluding someone. I appreciate the effort but the excuses are very weak.

It is really not that difficult to take a step back and make room in your circle. Or move your eyes back and forth between a few people so everyone feels like you are talking to them.

And it is so basic to not make plans in front of other people if you don't intend to invite them. Seriously! If someone tries to make plans with you in front of others who are not included how hard is it to say "oh I'm not sure, I'll have to get back to you" and then change the conversation. No one is saying to invite the whole bungalow colony out for lunch.
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4pom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 10:10 pm
amother wrote:
You are harsh.
I very much related to that amother's depiction.

Watergirl, in the situation with the event and her declining you as a "date", I could have been that woman. I sometimes don't pick up on social clues and if someone is asking to be the "third", I would answer honestly that someone else is the third. If you had asked me to join you all, I would say "Sure." But I'm not sure I would have the awareness to invite you along if you hadn't asked straight out.

I also have a hard time transitioning and if I made up to go with my sister, I would have a hard time taking along a friend too. It's a certain compartmentalization in my head where I keep relationships separate and having them both at the same time (or any other two totally different acquaintances) would throw me off.

So if I freeze someone out of a conversation, it's not because if my low self-esteem (which I my possibly have), but because I have a hard time multi-tasking social niceties. If I was talking to someone about something, I want to finish talking to her (hear her opinion, have her finish listening to my story, whatever...) before I acknowledge another joinee.

It's completely my problem, and I know it may appear as hurtful to someone else, but it's not like I naturally have it in me, so while I'm working on being gracious and including people who may not ask me explicitly, in the meantime, people may feel like I'm ignoring them. Really I'm just readying myself to welcome them. Or may not even realize I should acknowledge their arrival because my brain hasn't told me yet. Logically I *know* I should do it, but it's not instinct, so I appear standoff-ish until I remember my manners.

I hope I clarified why this happens at least some of the time. As for the bungalow colony thread, where it's repeatedly the same people excluding the same other people? No words for that.


Sorry for the harshness. No excuse for that. I should have waited until I was less passionate and upset.
All that aside what you are saying is not an excuse.
As an introvert and someone not very practical - my nature us to avoid small talk and socializing. I much prefer to sit with a book at the playground then join the other mothers. But I've learned to go beyond myself. When there is someone obviously new its a little easier to push myslef. There are times I definitely fail! - but I’m not excusing my behaviors. The correct chesed approach is clear. And there are times Id definitely rather not. - I’m catching up with a friend I rarely see/ Id prefer some quiet... but I cant deny the truth.
Perhaps Im more aware of the issue, having lived through various moves and been on the receiving end of peoples warmth and outreach. (- and also in contrast to receiving coldness and simply being ignored. )
Even this thread is making me aware of how much more I should push myself. bc Id rather not. Its against my nature in so many ways. Your words are the excuses in my mind too.
( and of course there are occasions you put your own needs first and your own plans with friends first. - but its a “but” and done sensitively)
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amother
Tan


 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 10:24 pm
I moved to a new neighborhood. Only ONE person came to say hi. (She moved away shortly thereafter.)

We needed a screwdriver so dh borrowed from a neighbor. He knew the husband from shul. I went to return it. "Hi, I'm Mrs So and So I just moved in. Nice to join this block etc." The woman said a limp hi, took the screwdriver and closed the door. That shabbos I could hear that that woman's backyard was a neighboring gathering place. I felt silly joining but after a month of no one being welcoming I pushed myself to go. I sat there for an hour and literally no one had teh decency to say Hi, how are you settling in etc. I was pretty much ignored.

I am very successful professionally and happy personally with my family, friends etc but I must say I came home and was fighting tears all day. After several more attempts I gave up. Apparently, a group of neighbors moved in at the same time and are very close. They're not interested in newcomers. Yes, there are adult woman who haven't outgrown childhood cliquey behavior.

Right now we are looking to sell our house and buy another, largely because of this.
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flowerpower




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 10:28 pm
amother wrote:
I moved to a new neighborhood. Only ONE person came to say hi. (She moved away shortly thereafter.)

We needed a screwdriver so dh borrowed from a neighbor. He knew the husband from shul. I went to return it. "Hi, I'm Mrs So and So I just moved in. Nice to join this block etc." The woman said a limp hi, took the screwdriver and closed the door. That shabbos I could hear that that woman's backyard was a neighboring gathering place. I felt silly joining but after a month of no one being welcoming I pushed myself to go. I sat there for an hour and literally no one had teh decency to say Hi, how are you settling in etc. I was pretty much ignored.

I am very successful professionally and happy personally with my family, friends etc but I must say I came home and was fighting tears all day. After several more attempts I gave up. Apparently, a group of neighbors moved in at the same time and are very close. They're not interested in newcomers. Yes, there are adult woman who haven't outgrown childhood cliquey behavior.

Right now we are looking to sell our house and buy another, largely because of this.



What a shame!!!!!! This makes me very sad. I know many people that moved into a new block and they got a lot of welcoming gestures like a cake, kugal, nice hello.....
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amother
Rose


 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 10:31 pm
4pom wrote:
Sorry for the harshness. No excuse for that. I should have waited until I was less passionate and upset.
All that aside what you are saying is not an excuse.
As an introvert and someone not very practical - my nature us to avoid small talk and socializing. I much prefer to sit with a book at the playground then join the other mothers. But I've learned to go beyond myself. When there is someone obviously new its a little easier to push myslef. There are times I definitely fail! - but I’m not excusing my behaviors. The correct chesed approach is clear. And there are times Id definitely rather not. - I’m catching up with a friend I rarely see/ Id prefer some quiet... but I cant deny the truth.
Perhaps Im more aware of the issue, having lived through various moves and been on the receiving end of peoples warmth and outreach. (- and also in contrast to receiving coldness and simply being ignored. )
Even this thread is making me aware of how much more I should push myself. bc Id rather not. Its against my nature in so many ways. Your words are the excuses in my mind too.
( and of course there are occasions you put your own needs first and your own plans with friends first. - but its a “but” and done sensitively)

So you're agreeing with me. I didn't say these are excuses. They are explanations. Of course I try my best and I don't intentionally hurt someone. But because it doesn't come naturally, I may, as you say, sometimes fail in going out of my comfort zone, not because I don't want to, but because I don't even REALIZE how my actions are being perceived.
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amother
Lime


 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 10:33 pm
amother wrote:
I moved to a new neighborhood. Only ONE person came to say hi. (She moved away shortly thereafter.)

We needed a screwdriver so dh borrowed from a neighbor. He knew the husband from shul. I went to return it. "Hi, I'm Mrs So and So I just moved in. Nice to join this block etc." The woman said a limp hi, took the screwdriver and closed the door. That shabbos I could hear that that woman's backyard was a neighboring gathering place. I felt silly joining but after a month of no one being welcoming I pushed myself to go. I sat there for an hour and literally no one had teh decency to say Hi, how are you settling in etc. I was pretty much ignored.

I am very successful professionally and happy personally with my family, friends etc but I must say I came home and was fighting tears all day. After several more attempts I gave up. Apparently, a group of neighbors moved in at the same time and are very close. They're not interested in newcomers. Yes, there are adult woman who haven't outgrown childhood cliquey behavior.

Right now we are looking to sell our house and buy another, largely because of this.

Oh my goodness! That sounds awful!!

Thanks for writing this btw. A few new families moved in across the street and I've been so overwhelmed with the day to day. So even though it's weeks later, and instead of making something which I'm not up for and so I keep pushing it off, I'm going to buy some ready platters and go over to welcome them.
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ra_mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 10:40 pm
watergirl wrote:
I think they know what they are doing.

I BH have a small group of close friends where I live, like 2 other ladies (BH many more friends out of town). A few friends but not close. Its not a lot but its fine. But they dont go to the same shul as me and they dont send their kids to the same schools that I do. I have serious social anxiety (I have anxiety in general) and events like the PTA mother's tea and shul kiddushes are crippling for me, but I try to go.

One year, an old neighbor who I was friendly with was at the tea. I walked up to her, took a breath, and said hi, how are you etc. We made small talk and then I asked her if she wanted to be my "date" because we were both there alone. She said "oh, I already have a date". So I said, can I be a third? She literally said "we have a third also". No “come join us”. FINE I got the hint. I sat down at an empty table and this woman happened to sit there also, across from me. Her date and "third" were next to me with a few others literally sat with their backs to me and ignored my attempts at joining the conversation. It was nothing short of cruel. I know that she has no issues with me at all and when we were neighbors, we'd hang out, she'd invite me to her house for social things, etc. This was just mean. And the other women at the packed table also seemed to have gone out of their way to ignore me.

At my shul (honestly I stopped going to this one because of snobs), there are a few women who I am friendly with and talk to at kiddush. There are a few women who are just nasty and on many occasions have come up to me and another friend who I was talking to and replaced me in the conversation. Even when I try to assert myself back in, it doesn't work and I just walk away. Thats not cool, and its not what you are supposed to do to someone. Its on the friend to reassert the original conversation and welcome the third in.

I am a person who feels the pain of the other women at the park on shabbos who is sitting alone and join her and make a conversation with her. I am socially anxious but not awkward, and I imagine others feel the same way that I do, so I gather courage and force myself to be friendly. I teach my kids to reach out also on on Purim I have my kids davka give mm to kids who are not their friends. I encourage my kids to make playdates with new kids... my guess is that other moms dont do this.

Middle school never really ended.

That is so painful. People can be so mean!!
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ra_mom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 10:44 pm
mommy3b2c wrote:
And what about when the person isn’t annoying?

Some people are just immature and rude. In my bungalow Colony there is certain group with a “nickname” for the group. I am technically part of this group. Last summer the men made a chat. One day we were sitting in a circle and I suggested the ladies make a chat too. They all just looked at each other and smirked. So of course I realized there already was a chat and I just wasn’t on it. Whatever. I assure you I am not the annoying one. Several of these ladies however, are quite annoying.

The answer op, is that many people are extremely selfish and self absorbed. A lot of them are struggling with low self esteem. Emotionally healthy adults just don’t act that way.

It's unbelievable how people act.
Even if there's a group of friends with years of history, when there's more company, don't shut them out. And if private plans need to be made, make sure to keep them private (even though when it's colony, and there's little privacy, you just have to be more inclusive).
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amother
Brunette


 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 11:19 pm
I don't consider myself socially off at all, I don't believe others think that about me either. With that being said, when I see people who are snobby, think they are IT, who walk right past me and ignore me, I freeze up, and get scared and intimidated. I feel like shrinking and becoming invisible. I can't function when I'm left out. How much more so with my kids...what bais yaakov girl walks away from another person who is in middle of taking to her? What BY girl starts running away with her new best friend when she sees her old one coming? What BY girl intentionally leaves out girls, and deals only with the cool, hip, snarky ones? The answer? BY girls who are raised by the same selfish, arrogant, obnoxious, mean, evil spirited mother's who have no trouble treating grown women like that. Don't be shocked. The apple does not fall far from the tree. These 13 year old brats are destined to be our future snobby obnoxious bungalow colony moms.
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giselle




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 11:42 pm
Does it help at all to think them immature and lacking social skills?
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amother
Green


 

Post Mon, Aug 20 2018, 11:49 pm
amother wrote:
I don't consider myself socially off at all, I don't believe others think that about me either. With that being said, when I see people who are snobby, think they are IT, who walk right past me and ignore me, I freeze up, and get scared and intimidated. I feel like shrinking and becoming invisible. I can't function when I'm left out. How much more so with my kids...what bais yaakov girl walks away from another person who is in middle of taking to her? What BY girl starts running away with her new best friend when she sees her old one coming? What BY girl intentionally leaves out girls, and deals only with the cool, hip, snarky ones? The answer? BY girls who are raised by the same selfish, arrogant, obnoxious, mean, evil spirited mother's who have no trouble treating grown women like that. Don't be shocked. The apple does not fall far from the tree. These 13 year old brats are destined to be our future snobby obnoxious bungalow colony moms.


Maybe you didn't mean to be insulting, but when you ask "what Bais Yaakov girl" you're implying that schools of other types don't aspire to teach their students good middos.
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tf




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 12:26 am
amother wrote:
So you're agreeing with me. I didn't say these are excuses. They are explanations. Of course I try my best and I don't intentionally hurt someone. But because it doesn't come naturally, I may, as you say, sometimes fail in going out of my comfort zone, not because I don't want to, but because I don't even REALIZE how my actions are being perceived.

This is called nisoyon, and when people view it as such, there's a tendency to be able to overcome it more easily because of awareness.
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amother
Jade


 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 2:44 am
Wedding Dinner Invite:

"Please be on time to greet Chosson and Kalloh".

We were.............



....the only ones.

Dinner started over an hour later shock
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4pom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 7:37 am
amother wrote:
So you're agreeing with me. I didn't say these are excuses. They are explanations. Of course I try my best and I don't intentionally hurt someone. But because it doesn't come naturally, I may, as you say, sometimes fail in going out of my comfort zone, not because I don't want to, but because I don't even REALIZE how my actions are being perceived.


Not sure what you mean by agreeing.
I most assuredly do not agree with the poster you agreed with.
You say you dont realize... as someone else said. Thats the area to work on. Instead of staying in our comfort bubble.

Awareness of challenges means active effort to make others feel good and be aware of how others may perceive me. Theres a difference with being caught up in own social challenges and hurting people ( no excuses to stay here- must be working on them) and actively saying- “this is me , my interests, my friends... why extend myself?”
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tf




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 7:41 am
4pom wrote:
Not sure what you mean by agreeing.
I most assuredly do not agree with the poster you agreed with.
You say you dont realize... as someone else said. Thats the area to work on. Instead of staying in our comfort bubble.

Awareness of challenges means active effort to make others feel good and be aware of how others may perceive me. Theres a difference with being caught up in own social challenges and hurting people ( no excuses to stay here- must be working on them) and actively saying- “this is me , my interests, my friends... why extend myself?”

Well said. Thank you in the name of all of those who are being hurt from the ones who refuse to take responsibility of their words, actions and thoughts.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 8:59 am
amother wrote:
No.please don't say this. I know you don't mean harm but I really don't want to attack anyone. Just want to understand.


It is. UNless it's not a choice.
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amother
Rose


 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 9:36 am
4pom wrote:
Not sure what you mean by agreeing.
I most assuredly do not agree with the poster you agreed with.
You say you dont realize... as someone else said. Thats the area to work on. Instead of staying in our comfort bubble.

Awareness of challenges means active effort to make others feel good and be aware of how others may perceive me. Theres a difference with being caught up in own social challenges and hurting people ( no excuses to stay here- must be working on them) and actively saying- “this is me , my interests, my friends... why extend myself?”

I don't understand why you insist on talking about staying in a comfort bubble! I know what I should an should not do. But when the situation presents itself, I don't realize it. It's a mental blockage. I am working on it. You think I like to act socially off? You think I like to hurt people? You (and the poster after you who thanked you) think I'm not taking responsibility. I am. I said it's my problem. AKA nisayon. But if I wouldn't ever fail my nisayon, I wouldn't be posting this - it wouldn't be a nisayon anymore. So instead of making me feel worse about my inadequacies (which you successfully did Sad ), take a moment to consider the other side.

You think I've never been hurt by people excluding me? On the contrary, because of how I am, it's probably happened to me more than to others. I am not some queen sitting on high and saying that you should all let yourselves be hurt because of my social lacks. No, I am the one in a group who is on the sidelines and gets hurt often too.

It would be nice if more people could acknowledge how hard social niceties and expectations are on people like me.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 21 2018, 10:04 am
Yikes.

This thread makes me think of the play the 5th graders (DD included) of Camp Ahava put up this summer. Maybe they chose this topic in order to tackle the problem early on? It was a parallel type of play - there were a bunch of kids who were dressed up like daisies (really cute headbands with daisy petals, and flower costumes) and one day a tulip randomly grows in the daisy patch. She is not welcomed. In the parallel story, one day a new family moves onto the block, and the girls don't want to welcome the newcomer.

The play went thru all the reasons why the daisies, and the kids, don't welcome someone they decided is "different" "annoying" "doesn't belong here" and such, and debunks every reason they come up with....in the end, they realize that tulips can coexist with daisies, and middos tovos should trump all other irrational reasons why we would mistreat another human being.

I think the bungalow colonies should contact DD's camp director and the kids should put up a play to teach some Mommies a thing or two.

****

I'll never forget how years ago, new to Lakewood, I attended one of the BMG events for the ladies. As it happened, my best friend had to cancel and I decided to go anyway, by my very own self. I walked in and met a friend/neighbor of mine, who happens to be from a very wealthy family. I asked her if she was there with anyone, and she said yes, her family is there, but please join us anyway, come on, I'll introduce you....

It was then that I realized that her family was being honored at the event, and they had reserved tables. I totally did not want to impose. But my friend insisted I join her, and practically dragged me up front, introduced me to her family, and insisted I sit with them, they have plenty of reserved seats, plenty of room.

Some people have REAL class. It's also called Ahavat Yisrael (written that way on purpose, as my friend is Sephardic.)

I tell my kids about this all the time. Something I hope they will emulate.
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