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-> Interesting Discussions
imasoftov
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 Tue, Sep 04 2018, 12:11 pm
| amother wrote: | https://www.vosizneias.com/46871/2010/01/13/new-york-todays-daf-bava-basra-145a-wedding-gifts-are-they-obligatory/?comments_sort=desc
from vos iz neias: see link above
New York - Often people are invited to a wedding. They sit, they eat, and sometimes, they do not bring wedding gifts. Of course it is a social no-no not to bring a gift, but is it a halachic obligation?
Today’s Daf (bava Basra 145a) seems to indicate that it is. The braisah states that 5 things were said in regard to Shoshvinin. One of them is reciprocity. If a person gave you a gift for your wedding, you must likewise reciprocate - or you must return the original gift.
The Shulchan Aruch in Even hoEzer (Siman 60) seems to indicate that the laws of Shoshvinim are not really obnserved today. However, many of the Achronim have commented that these laws are not observed to the extent that the gifts legally have to be returned. However, in regard to the obligation of giving it, this is still the custom (See Drishas Ari, e.g.)
Often the parents depend upon the wedding gifts for their children, and have spent the wedding money with this in mind - that they predict a certain return on the catering cost so that they do not have to provide their children with whatever marriage start up money they had planned to give initially.
nowadays bais din can't force someone to give a gift back, but in the past they could. Even so, it's proper to give.
Rambam Zechiya U’matana 7:2-5 talks about this.
I agree that if they gave a shower gift that counts as a wedding gift.
If people can't afford to give gifts, but are close to the couple, most people understand if they can't give gifts. It they're not that close to the couple, then they can come to chuppah instead of dinner.
If you're giving a gift to someone who can't afford it, you can always have in mind that it is tzedaka and take of off from maaser, and you don't have to expect back. |
I find this very puzzling, as shoshvanim are people who accompany the couple to the chuppah, not every guest at the wedding. In the Rambam mentioned above, it says that the shoshvanim assist in paying for the wedding festivities, this is not a guest who brings a gift, even if the couple winds up using some or all of the cash gifts to pay off wedding debt. Tosefta Ketuvot says that there were originally only two, one from each side.
In modern Hebrew the word is applied to bridesmaids and groomsmen, and it doesn't seem to have been all that different in the times of Chazal or Rambam, except that maybe the bride's shoshvanim were also men (also probably they didn't coordinate the colors they wore) ...
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ShishKabob
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Tue, Sep 04 2018, 12:19 pm
| amother wrote: | | I heard there's a halacha that if someone gives you a gift, you're supposed to give the same in return, so I keep a list of how much people gave me, so when the right time comes, we can give back. |
I never heard of such a thing. I could be wrong though.
Definition of gift: a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present
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Fox
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Tue, Sep 04 2018, 12:46 pm
It's 100 percent cultural, IMHO.
In some cultures and communities, a wedding is a community affair. Virtually every acquaintance is invited, and the assumption is that gifts either literally pay for the event or that at least everyone "pays it forward" by giving a gift and that members of the community will do the same when they make simchas themselves. In these communities, you'd darned well better send a check or whatever is considered appropriate unless you're truly poverty stricken.
In other cultures, a wedding is more of a private party to which family and friends are invited. The baal simcha puts on whatever type of event he can afford, and there's no "pay to play" or "pay it forward" expectation. In such cases, gifts are a nice bonus, but not really considered one way or the other.
The problems arise when people misjudge which type of event they've been invited to. If you grew up in a culture with community simchas, you'll probably be careful to give gifts of appropriate value whenever you attend, and you'll be shocked if others don't reciprocate. If you're from a culture in which weddings are basically private parties, the community model feels like extortion.
Since communities often overlap, it can be hard to determine what's expected, let alone decide the degree to which you want to play along.
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SixOfWands
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Tue, Sep 04 2018, 1:01 pm
| Fox wrote: | It's 100 percent cultural, IMHO.
In some cultures and communities, a wedding is a community affair. Virtually every acquaintance is invited, and the assumption is that gifts either literally pay for the event or that at least everyone "pays it forward" by giving a gift and that members of the community will do the same when they make simchas themselves. In these communities, you'd darned well better send a check or whatever is considered appropriate unless you're truly poverty stricken.
In other cultures, a wedding is more of a private party to which family and friends are invited. The baal simcha puts on whatever type of event he can afford, and there's no "pay to play" or "pay it forward" expectation. In such cases, gifts are a nice bonus, but not really considered one way or the other.
The problems arise when people misjudge which type of event they've been invited to. If you grew up in a culture with community simchas, you'll probably be careful to give gifts of appropriate value whenever you attend, and you'll be shocked if others don't reciprocate. If you're from a culture in which weddings are basically private parties, the community model feels like extortion.
Since communities often overlap, it can be hard to determine what's expected, let alone decide the degree to which you want to play along. |
I'll respectfully disagree.
I live in a "private party" community. Always have, even before becoming religious. And it would be considered to be in shockingly bad taste not to give a gift. (And yes, we also give engagement/shower gifts. Different obligation. Engagement/shower gifts are usually from a registry; wedding gifts are usually checks.) If you're not so close to the couple that you would want to purchase a gift, then you don't attend any part of the wedding.
Everyone understands that not everyone can afford an expensive gift. A challah cover, some measuring spoons and measuring cups, anything in the budget. But nothing? Not done.
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amother
Salmon
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Tue, Sep 04 2018, 1:07 pm
| imasoftov wrote: | I find this very puzzling, as shoshvanim are people who accompany the couple to the chuppah, not every guest at the wedding. In the Rambam mentioned above, it says that the shoshvanim assist in paying for the wedding festivities, this is not a guest who brings a gift, even if the couple winds up using some or all of the cash gifts to pay off wedding debt. Tosefta Ketuvot says that there were originally only two, one from each side.
In modern Hebrew the word is applied to bridesmaids and groomsmen, and it doesn't seem to have been all that different in the times of Chazal or Rambam, except that maybe the bride's shoshvanim were also men (also probably they didn't coordinate the colors they wore) ... |
shoshvanim isn't clear, but likely meant friends in the days of the Rambam. Today also refers to the groomsmen and others from the bridal party. See this article from the OU:
https://www.ou.org/torah/halac.....inin/
the following is from the OU.org website.
There is an ancient Jewish custom for every wedding ceremony to include individuals appointed to serve as the “shoshvinin”. The word “shoshvinin” is actually somewhat mysterious and of uncertain meaning. Some commentators suggest that the word “shoshvin” means “friendship”.[1] It is also used in scripture to mean “a beloved friend”.[2] In the Talmud it is used as a term to describe the monetary wedding gifts which are given by the guests in order to help offset the costs of the wedding feast.[3] Those who partake of the wedding feast are also called shoshvinin.[4] One who receives shoshvinim money for one’s wedding is expected to reciprocate with a similar amount of money when that person gets married.[5] One who does not reciprocate shoshvinin gifts can be compelled to do so by a Beit Din.[6]
Other sources seem to suggest that the word shoshvinin is actually an acronym for the words “sasson v’simcha bein chatan v’kalla (happiness and celebration between the groom and the bride.)”[7] The word shoshvinin is translated and used today in a number of contexts, including: “the best man”, “the groomsmen”, and “attendants”. The groom’s attendants are also intended to recall that just as a king is not to be seen without his attendants and entourage, neither is a groom.[8]
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southernbubby
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Tue, Sep 04 2018, 1:52 pm
| SixOfWands wrote: | I'll respectfully disagree.
I live in a "private party" community. Always have, even before becoming religious. And it would be considered to be in shockingly bad taste not to give a gift. (And yes, we also give engagement/shower gifts. Different obligation. Engagement/shower gifts are usually from a registry; wedding gifts are usually checks.) If you're not so close to the couple that you would want to purchase a gift, then you don't attend any part of the wedding.
Everyone understands that not everyone can afford an expensive gift. A challah cover, some measuring spoons and measuring cups, anything in the budget. But nothing? Not done. |
I do see the cultural part as being valid. My oldest son got married in Jerusalem and guests in their community usually bring an inexpensive gift. Their friends and neighbors were from Chassidishe circles (not Chabad). The food, however, was not the type of fancy catering that we see in America and elsewhere and most guests came and went at odd times and nobody RSVPs.
It Detroit, it costs $65 to be a hostess at a shower plus help with set up or clean up and help with sending out invitations and preparing refreshments. Usually that is considered an adequate gift in Detroit. Sometimes bochrim and girls are invited for the dancing and don't need to give a gift.
Some of my children were married in Crown Heights and it is very common for guests to come only at the end for dancing and because they are only eating desert, no one considers them obligated to give a gift.
I see that some communities are wealthier and at the same time have smaller families and the expectations are greater. My husbands MO cousins from NJ usually give at least $200 even if they don't attend the wedding at all. One of my son's invited a non-frum college professor and the man and his wife gave $500. (The same son also invited Obama who was president then and got a nice card from the White House).
I don't remember my kids getting large checks or gifts from anyone in the general Chabad community and most could not afford to ever go to a wedding if that was the expectation.
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amother
Turquoise
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Tue, Sep 04 2018, 2:00 pm
| SixOfWands wrote: | I'll respectfully disagree.
I live in a "private party" community. Always have, even before becoming religious. And it would be considered to be in shockingly bad taste not to give a gift. (And yes, we also give engagement/shower gifts. Different obligation. Engagement/shower gifts are usually from a registry; wedding gifts are usually checks.) If you're not so close to the couple that you would want to purchase a gift, then you don't attend any part of the wedding.
Everyone understands that not everyone can afford an expensive gift. A challah cover, some measuring spoons and measuring cups, anything in the budget. But nothing? Not done. |
This is unfair. A poor person can't go and wish the kallah a mazol tov on her wedding day because she can't afford a gift? A poor person can't go to the chuppah nor dance ? Is a poor person allowed to eat from the table set up for those who want to only wish a mazol tov but not wash? What about those that receive tzedukah from the those giving the simcha? They can't share in the joy and show respect?
The truth is that I wouldn't want a poor person to spend their precious money on measuring spoons and cups for me. I wouldn't use cheap ones in my kitchen. I would throw or give them away. The kind that I would use are not something I want someone else to pay for if they wouldn't pay for that for themselves. I had 4 chassunashs this week. Giving that many gift's that are up to the bride's standards is not affordable except for the well off.
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southernbubby
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Tue, Sep 04 2018, 2:08 pm
| amother wrote: | This is unfair. A poor person can't go and wish the kallah a mazol tov on her wedding day because she can't afford a gift? A poor person can't go to the chuppah nor dance ? Is a poor person allowed to eat from the table set up for those who want to only wish a mazol tov but not wash? What about those that receive tzedukah from the those giving the simcha? They can't share in the joy and show respect?
The truth is that I wouldn't want a poor person to spend their precious money on measuring spoons and cups for me. I wouldn't use cheap ones in my kitchen. I would throw or give them away. The kind that I would use are not something I want someone else to pay for if they wouldn't pay for that for themselves. I had 4 chassunashs this week. Giving that many gift's that are up to the bride's standards is not affordable except for the well off. |
Good point! It is important to sponsor a meal for the poor of Jerusalem on the day of the wedding, even if you live in America. There should be consideration for the poor on that day. Some people set up tables for poor beggars to eat at the wedding regardless of where they are. It is a good segula for the chosson and kallah.
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keym
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Tue, Sep 04 2018, 2:12 pm
In my experience, the expectations are different for those invited for dinner, and those invited only for the chuppa or simchas chassan vkalla.
But yes, those invited for dinner usually give gifts, as much as they can afford.
But if you're invited to dance or just for the chuppa, I think its less prevalent.
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amother
Lime
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Tue, Sep 04 2018, 3:08 pm
| SuperWify wrote: | 25% did not give?? Wow your really lucky!
I’d say 25% did give.
But keep in mind I did get Vort and shower presents from a lot of the guests already- should I also have expected a wedding gift?! |
No, unless it’s a close family member! Do you really think most people can afford a vort gift, shower gift AND wedding gift? I think it’s awful when people are invited to a shower strictly to get lots of gifts...I’ve heard about a case like that recentky where the mother of the bride is telling people which gifts to bring!
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amother
Lime
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Tue, Sep 04 2018, 3:11 pm
| amother wrote: | | I heard there's a halacha that if someone gives you a gift, you're supposed to give the same in return, so I keep a list of how much people gave me, so when the right time comes, we can give back. |
That’s interesting, I never heard that, can you provide a source?
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amother
Lime
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Tue, Sep 04 2018, 3:14 pm
| amother wrote: | | Those are wedding gifts. Of course you shouldn't have expected more. |
What gets me upset is when friends of the baal simcha contact the friends and acquaintances and ask them to chip in (not a small amount!) for flowers or other items for the kiddish or sheva brachos, etc. This puts us on the spot as we know if we don’t (can’t) contribute, our name will not be listed on the gift or flowers or candy platters, and it will appear to the Baal Simcha that we didn’t want to contribute. Some people obviously are struggling financially and I think it’s wrong for these people to call individuals and ask (thereby pressuring, even unintentionally) people to contribute towards a large gift or flowers, etc.. If you want to send flowers or another gift, do so on your own or with others whom you know want to contribute, and please don’t involve the rest of us who may not be able to.
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gamanit
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Tue, Sep 04 2018, 3:36 pm
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I did not get many gifts at my vort or wedding. I was glad that people came; if they brought a gift it was a nice bonus but certainly not expected. It is no longer expected in my community to give gifts for every wedding you attend. I would say that less than 10% of attendees gave us anything (by vort or wedding; counting checks).
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SixOfWands
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Tue, Sep 04 2018, 5:08 pm
| amother wrote: | This is unfair. A poor person can't go and wish the kallah a mazol tov on her wedding day because she can't afford a gift? A poor person can't go to the chuppah nor dance ? Is a poor person allowed to eat from the table set up for those who want to only wish a mazol tov but not wash? What about those that receive tzedukah from the those giving the simcha? They can't share in the joy and show respect?
The truth is that I wouldn't want a poor person to spend their precious money on measuring spoons and cups for me. I wouldn't use cheap ones in my kitchen. I would throw or give them away. The kind that I would use are not something I want someone else to pay for if they wouldn't pay for that for themselves. I had 4 chassunashs this week. Giving that many gift's that are up to the bride's standards is not affordable except for the well off. |
Oh, dear. I wasn't aware that there are high end and low end measuring spoons. Am I considered declasse for using Oxo measuring cups, which cost under $10? I cringe to think what you'd think of my kitchen towels in that same price range.
Its pretty obvious we don't run in similar circles; my friends pretty much all use plastic measuring spoons, and Oxo or Pyrex cups, not to mention inexpensive kitchen towels. I can always use more if you want to donate those things to me.
But no, we don't invite people just to drop by a wedding without giving them dinner.
And I suppose its in the realm of possibility that there are people who could not afford the type of inexpensive gift that I would appreciate and people like you would look down their noses at. And of course they would still be welcome at any occasion. But they're few and far between.
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southernbubby
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Tue, Sep 04 2018, 5:20 pm
| SixOfWands wrote: | Oh, dear. I wasn't aware that there are high end and low end measuring spoons. Am I considered declasse for using Oxo measuring cups, which cost under $10? I cringe to think what you'd think of my kitchen towels in that same price range.
Its pretty obvious we don't run in similar circles; my friends pretty much all use plastic measuring spoons, and Oxo or Pyrex cups, not to mention inexpensive kitchen towels. I can always use more if you want to donate those things to me.
But no, we don't invite people just to drop by a wedding without giving them dinner.
And I suppose its in the realm of possibility that there are people who could not afford the type of inexpensive gift that I would appreciate and people like you would look down their noses at. And of course they would still be welcome at any occasion. But they're few and far between. |
I have seen some financially challenged women buy shower gifts at the dollar store and they were quite nice. You can get some decent measuring stuff at Dollar Tree. I don't think that high end measuring stuff works better for measuring than low end. Later on, these stacking cups and spoons make great baby toys.
I went to a shower recently and I was not a hostess this time but I brought a gift. It has been an expensive summer and we are moving out of Detroit in a few months (G-d willing) and so I went to Big Lots and bought the bride a tool kit. Her mother is very happy that her 20 year old can now learn how to put up a mezuzzah on the door. They seemed relieved that someone thought of that.
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SixOfWands
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Tue, Sep 04 2018, 5:31 pm
| southernbubby wrote: | I have seen some financially challenged women buy shower gifts at the dollar store and they were quite nice. You can get some decent measuring stuff at Dollar Tree. I don't think that high end measuring stuff works better for measuring than low end. Later on, these stacking cups and spoons make great baby toys.
I went to a shower recently and I was not a hostess this time but I brought a gift. It has been an expensive summer and we are moving out of Detroit in a few months (G-d willing) and so I went to Big Lots and bought the bride a tool kit. Her mother is very happy that her 20 year old can now learn how to put up a mezuzzah on the door. They seemed relieved that someone thought of that. |
Its not that my measuring spoons break. Its that they disappear. I think they're cohabiting with the single socks that somehow escape from the drier; I hope they're living happy and productive lives. But trust me, you could gift me with 40 sets of cheap measuring spoons. By this time next year, I'd own 4 1/2 teaspoons, 2 tablespoons and a single teaspoon. And not a single one would have broken.
Tool kits are great gifts. Everyone needs tools.
Mazel tov on your impending move. Are you able to share where you'll be going?
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southernbubby
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Tue, Sep 04 2018, 5:36 pm
| SixOfWands wrote: | Its not that my measuring spoons break. Its that they disappear. I think they're cohabiting with the single socks that somehow escape from the drier; I hope they're living happy and productive lives. But trust me, you could gift me with 40 sets of cheap measuring spoons. By this time next year, I'd own 4 1/2 teaspoons, 2 tablespoons and a single teaspoon. And not a single one would have broken.
Tool kits are great gifts. Everyone needs tools.
Mazel tov on your impending move. Are you able to share where you'll be going? |
Monsey. Our youngest and his wife and kiddos live there and 2 other of my kids are in Crown Heights and another is in New Haven (this excludes the Pittsburgh and Israel kids) but we will visit them too (Hi Pittsburgh daughter if you are reading this. See you Thursday I"Y"H"  )
BTW, Six, you really need to see the latest Randy Rainbow featuring Randy dressed up like Dorothy.
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amother
Turquoise
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Tue, Sep 04 2018, 5:55 pm
| SixOfWands wrote: | Oh, dear. I wasn't aware that there are high end and low end measuring spoons. Am I considered declasse for using Oxo measuring cups, which cost under $10? I cringe to think what you'd think of my kitchen towels in that same price range.
Its pretty obvious we don't run in similar circles; my friends pretty much all use plastic measuring spoons, and Oxo or Pyrex cups, not to mention inexpensive kitchen towels. I can always use more if you want to donate those things to me.
But no, we don't invite people just to drop by a wedding without giving them dinner.
And I suppose its in the realm of possibility that there are people who could not afford the type of inexpensive gift that I would appreciate and people like you would look down their noses at. And of course they would still be welcome at any occasion. But they're few and far between. |
We definitely run in different circles. We don't isolate ourselves with only rich or upper middle class people. Some of my neighbors often can't afford yontiff. That being said, I don't use less expensive measuring items because I love to cook precisely and don't like replacing. I also don't want anyone to stretch themselves for me. I rather donate my items to those that can't afford Oxo items. I don't look down my nose at it, but I have zero use for it.
Our affairs are large community affairs. Notices go up in shuls, WhatsApp texts, invitations placed in mail boxes, emails, neighborhood news letters, etc. The actual invitations usually arrive a week or two before the simcha with no RSVP asked.
Our affairs are free flowing usually without table assignments. You want to sit down to wash- great. If you don't want to - great. People arrive from great distances, and some just say a mazol tov and do a dance! When I say great distances, I mean internationally.
I usually attend the ones I am "personally" invited to. Yup, that is now a thing - the "personal" invitation via WhatsApp or some other electronic way. If you figure out what it means, please tell me. I think it sort of means that you are a desirable guest.
There are many people who could not afford $10 and $20 gifts. Multiply this by the sheer number of invites, and you can see it is troubling financially for many.
I think fewer than 5% who attended my chassunah gave me gifts, but the ones that did were huge. Strangers attended my chassunah to welcome me to the community. I met all of the guests subsequently. Some I met years later. Probably close to 100% gave generous bar mitzvah gifts.
If you have a chance to attend a large fluid chassunah, I urge to do so. Forget the Oxo stuff. No one is keeping a chesbon on who doesn't give. No one expects gift's, but they are appreciated.
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imasoftov
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Tue, Sep 04 2018, 6:39 pm
| amother wrote: | shoshvanim isn't clear, but likely meant friends in the days of the Rambam. Today also refers to the groomsmen and others from the bridal party. See this article from the OU:
https://www.ou.org/torah/halac.....inin/
the following is from the OU.org website.
There is an ancient Jewish custom for every wedding ceremony to include individuals appointed to serve as the “shoshvinin”. The word “shoshvinin” is actually somewhat mysterious and of uncertain meaning. Some commentators suggest that the word “shoshvin” means “friendship”.[1] It is also used in scripture to mean “a beloved friend”.[2] In the Talmud it is used as a term to describe the monetary wedding gifts which are given by the guests in order to help offset the costs of the wedding feast.[3] Those who partake of the wedding feast are also called shoshvinin.[4] One who receives shoshvinim money for one’s wedding is expected to reciprocate with a similar amount of money when that person gets married.[5] One who does not reciprocate shoshvinin gifts can be compelled to do so by a Beit Din.[6]
Other sources seem to suggest that the word shoshvinin is actually an acronym for the words “sasson v’simcha bein chatan v’kalla (happiness and celebration between the groom and the bride.)”[7] The word shoshvinin is translated and used today in a number of contexts, including: “the best man”, “the groomsmen”, and “attendants”. The groom’s attendants are also intended to recall that just as a king is not to be seen without his attendants and entourage, neither is a groom.[8] |
I cannot tell if you are agreeing with me that this only applies (if at all) to close friends who gave gifts earmarked to pay for the wedding and perhaps have other formal roles beyond that of a regular guest, or are disagreeing with me and arguing that any gift (or perhaps only a cash gift) makes one a shoshvin.
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