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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Teenagers and Older children
Teens judging other kids



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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 05 2018, 8:51 am
Please bear with me. I'm so upset, I'm practically shaking.

Last night DD took our dog out for a walk. She passed a group of girls about her age, who were dressed very frum (BY type uniforms). She had her ear buds in, but she could still hear them, as they didn't bother to lower their voices.

Is that a boy or a girl? Why is her hair so short?
Ewww, she's wearing leggings. That is so disgusting.
She's probably gay, she's so gross!
What is she doing here? She doesn't belong here.
How could her parents let her look like that?

And that's just a small sample. DD tried to play it off like it didn't bother her that much, but she also said "This is why I refuse to make friends here. It's not safe to risk the rejection. I can't wait to go back to America. If this is what Jewish kids are like, then of course I don't want anything to do with it."

And frankly, she's not wrong. Crying

I had nightmares about it all night last night, and woke up in a panic attack. I am so heartbroken for her. It hurts me so much to see her have to deal with this. If there was any chance at all about kindling even a spark of yiddishkeit in her, that just got stamped out.

Please, if your kids are good, Torah observant, and have no challenges, encourage them to have compassion on people who are obviously struggling! I don't expect your kids to do kiruv on my kid, that is too much to ask. They don't even have to befriend my kid. Just tell them that if they can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

I can't even tell you the pain I feel as I write this, and I have no idea how much pain DD is in, because she holds it all in and tries to act like it doesn't matter.
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1ofbillions




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 05 2018, 9:26 am
That is so awful!! I’m so sorry.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 05 2018, 9:35 am
Can I come beat them up? Please? And wipe those smug little expressions off their faces? Ugh!

I can think of all kinds of witty come-backs, but if your DD is anything like me, the moment would pass before she could deliver it.

The popular wisdom is that these girls probably learned their attitudes and behaviors from their parents, and while there's some truth to that, I also know that teenagers are pack animals. The nicest, sweetest girl can transform, werewolf-like, into a cruel predator when the alpha wolf gives the signal.

If it helps, try to remember that you are probably more disturbed by this than she is. By nature, moms take insults to our kids more to heart than our kids take them. Just knowing that you're outraged on her behalf and consider it a big deal may be all the validation she needs.

But my DD Prunella lives in Israel now, and while she's usually not into beating people up, I could convince her to make an exception in this case!
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Dandelion1




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 05 2018, 9:56 am
I have both dati and non dati teens at home. Not a situation I could have ever anticipated, but life does throw it's curveballs. Both sets (2 and 2) have had to deal with occasional nastiness in the social realm, from the "other side". They've come home and fought with their siblings, citing these incidents as "proof" of why dati/secular people are awful and to be avoided and rejected at all costs.

In a way, it has been a good learning experience for them. My constant message to them in this regard is that nastiness (and kindness), exists everywhere. You figure out who you are based on your own self, not on the existence of jerks that you happened across. That is a very misguided and lazy way of thinking (although quite understandably human, in our drive to create patterns and make sense of our world).

FF, why are you shaking? Did you not encounter kids who were jerks as a child/teen (not the word I would choose, but I'll keep this g-rated)? In my realm, it was not based on "frumness" but rather parental wealth and background. Is that better? Worse? I don't know. I don't care.

But the best message I can give my kids is that some people are just that. Or are behaving that way for whatever reason. Hey, let's say a little prayer for them. Hope for their sake they'll learn some decency. Some will, some won't. But it's about them, not you, and not any external religious views, wealth, attractiveness, or lack thereof.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 05 2018, 10:14 am
aleph wrote:

FF, why are you shaking?


I don't know how much of my backstory you have read, but DD has a history of self harm, and it's often set off by incidents like these.

I don't expect teens to be mature and kind, I do expect them to wait until they get home to say loshon hara about people. At least have the decency not to do it when they are 5 feet away from you!

I guess I just wanted to put out a PSA to parents to remind their kids that they have no way of knowing how an unkind word will affect someone else.
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DVOM




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 05 2018, 10:22 am
My darling FF, I'm so sorry and angry for you and your daughter! How painful!

My husband is Isreali, and I know that some of our Israeli relatives consider us barely religious. My husband wears jeans, I wear leggings and sandals, our kids have trucks and scuba divers and stars on their yarmulkas and wear shorts and baseball caps, and these are just the obvious, skin-surface differences. Last time we were in Isreal to visit, there were a few times when my kids' little cousins made negative comments about our religious observance. Thankfully, these comments went over my boys' heads, but they were so distressing to me and my husband. We needed to remind ourselves that kids say stupid, tactless, cruel things sometimes, and let it go. It didn't help me to wonder if these were the sentiments that they were hearing from or absorbing from their parents (my siblings in law). Perhaps they were (and are) critical of the life their brother (my husband) is leading; regardless, it was also very clear that they love our family very dearly. I tried to put these thoughts out of my head. I had to just move on. I think this would have been much more difficult if I saw my kids affected by their criticism. I guess we'll see how this dynamic pans our when they get older.

I don't know you in person FF, but you seem like such a wonderful mom. You love and accept your daughter for who she is, where she is. That's the most important thing.
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Dandelion1




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 05 2018, 10:26 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
I don't know how much of my backstory you have read, but DD has a history of self harm, and it's often set off by incidents like these.

I don't expect teens to be mature and kind, I do expect them to wait until they get home to say loshon hara about people. At least have the decency not to do it when they are 5 feet away from you!

I guess I just wanted to put out a PSA to parents to remind their kids that they have no way of knowing how an unkind word will affect someone else.


I'm so sorry to hear that.... Upon rereading I see that what I wrote may have come across as being judgemental and I didn't mean it as such. In a way, I was responding more to my own history of reacting very strongly to the social suffering on the part of my own children, something which I have tried to learn to modify somewhat. I truly understand, you have reason to feel the concern you feel.

And I suppose part of my message to my children was also based upon my own life experience, things I wish I would have understood as a teen. I was also very reactive to social situations, and wanted so badly to instill some casual resilience in my own children, against the nastiness out there.

Although in retrospect I do realize, that like everything else, it is so so individual. One of my children just rolls with the punches, can speak up for herself, can brush others off and move on easily. Another of them is as you describe your dd.

But I do firmly believe in instilling the concept that people are more or less the same all over, that it's someone's own character that dictates their behavior, and has absolutely nothing to do with those that are on the receiving end. I don't know if this message has helped my kids per se, but I do feel it bears repeating.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 05 2018, 10:37 am
aleph wrote:

But I do firmly believe in instilling the concept that people are more or less the same all over, that it's someone's own character that dictates their behavior, and has absolutely nothing to do with those that are on the receiving end. I don't know if this message has helped my kids per se, but I do feel it bears repeating.


No worries, I didn't feel judged.

The thing is, she knows that there are good and bad people everywhere on a LOGICAL level, but emotionally it's a different thing. She is old enough to know that she needs to filter her thoughts and be compassionate, and she is very shocked when other people her age (or even older) don't do that.

I think part of that is her "black and white thinking", where she expects everyone to think and feel the way she does. She is consistently surprised when they don't. (We're working on that in therapy.)

Our family has always modeled acceptance of people from all walks of life, but she holds frum people to an even higher standard. I think we all do, really. How many times have we here on Imamother voiced disappointment when we are snubbed, insulted, or otherwise treated badly by a fellow Jew? Somehow, it just stings more.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 05 2018, 10:56 am
If you knew who they were, you could call the parents. I remember when my daughter was a teen and she and her friends wanted to go horseback riding and I got a call from a mother of a very shy girl who asked me to make sure that her daughter was included. The girl was in her teens but the mother wanted the other girls to realize that they had to put some effort into making friends with her daughter.

We of course informed our daughters that the shy girl was to be fully included. This girl, BTW, was a student in a public school at that time but is a very frum wife and mother now. She also had had a difficult past but when I see her at shul with her adorable kids, husband with a shtreimel and her very frum friends, I get nachas and am glad that I did my part in seeing that she had a chance at having frum friends.

Is there a way that you could find out who these girls are and approach the parents about making sure that these girls don't mistreat your daughter?
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Dandelion1




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 05 2018, 11:07 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
No worries, I didn't feel judged.

The thing is, she knows that there are good and bad people everywhere on a LOGICAL level, but emotionally it's a different thing. She is old enough to know that she needs to filter her thoughts and be compassionate, and she is very shocked when other people her age (or even older) don't do that.

I think part of that is her "black and white thinking", where she expects everyone to think and feel the way she does. She is consistently surprised when they don't. (We're working on that in therapy.)

Our family has always modeled acceptance of people from all walks of life, but she holds frum people to an even higher standard. I think we all do, really. How many times have we here on Imamother voiced disappointment when we are snubbed, insulted, or otherwise treated badly by a fellow Jew? Somehow, it just stings more.


Yes, very true. I suppose that is where the discord always lies, between logical knowledge and emotional knowledge. And even with age and experience, this is a constant struggle.
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 05 2018, 11:17 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
I don't know how much of my backstory you have read, but DD has a history of self harm, and it's often set off by incidents like these.


Oh, hugs, FF. It's terrifying to see your loved one hurt herself. I'm glad to hear you're all attached to a good therapist - it helps a lot. I'm really glad to hear your daughter has you in her corner, rooting for her. That primal love and acceptance from you will help her more than anything.

I pray your daughter finds where she wants to be in life soon. Again, hugs.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 05 2018, 11:18 pm
southernbubby wrote:
If you knew who they were, you could call the parents. I remember when my daughter was a teen and she and her friends wanted to go horseback riding and I got a call from a mother of a very shy girl who asked me to make sure that her daughter was included. The girl was in her teens but the mother wanted the other girls to realize that they had to put some effort into making friends with her daughter.

We of course informed our daughters that the shy girl was to be fully included. This girl, BTW, was a student in a public school at that time but is a very frum wife and mother now. She also had had a difficult past but when I see her at shul with her adorable kids, husband with a shtreimel and her very frum friends, I get nachas and am glad that I did my part in seeing that she had a chance at having frum friends.

Is there a way that you could find out who these girls are and approach the parents about making sure that these girls don't mistreat your daughter?


Kudos to you and all the other mothers in this story who were sensitive and alert to the social dynamics and intervened for this girl's benefit.
I think that FF's DD's specific situation is not the same.
Some neighborhoods of Beit Shemesh are notorious for intolerance that sometimes escalates to violence against people who are perceived as a threat to the homogeneity of the community. This group of girls who passed by - who probably didn't know FF's DD personally and who maybe don't even live in the same neighborhood - were just articulating the values that they learned at home, in school and from their near environment. There's really nothing FF can do other than consistently loving and supporting her DD and boosting her sense of self-worth (which she is already doing) and explaining the religious tensions that exist in Beit Shemesh (and in other areas of Israel) so that she shouldn't take these type of incidents personally.
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salt




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 05 2018, 11:34 pm
southernbubby wrote:
If you knew who they were, you could call the parents. I remember when my daughter was a teen and she and her friends wanted to go horseback riding and I got a call from a mother of a very shy girl who asked me to make sure that her daughter was included. The girl was in her teens but the mother wanted the other girls to realize that they had to put some effort into making friends with her daughter.

We of course informed our daughters that the shy girl was to be fully included. This girl, BTW, was a student in a public school at that time but is a very frum wife and mother now. She also had had a difficult past but when I see her at shul with her adorable kids, husband with a shtreimel and her very frum friends, I get nachas and am glad that I did my part in seeing that she had a chance at having frum friends.

Is there a way that you could find out who these girls are and approach the parents about making sure that these girls don't mistreat your daughter?


Or find out what school they are from, and approach the principle?
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 06 2018, 1:02 am
It's not about Jewish. Not all Jews are whatever one has experienced. Well, she's Jewish, so...
I went to public high school. I will let you know it was just the same - it is worse today. The problems were NOT caused by the Jewish minority. Teens suck, the most is Middle school ime and many people's experience, but HS still and sometimes first year college. Adults may say less - or not, many agressions are from 18+ - but in the end they are those who did the Shoah, the genocides and the wars too, so...
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Thu, Sep 06 2018, 2:44 am
I grew up not frum and went to a not religious HS and people said hurtful things to each other quite often. Of course I am not saying this is a good thing, but it's not like it's uncommon that teens can be insensitive and say hurtful things, and it certainly is not exclusive to Israelis.

Unfortunately, the kid who is different looking will often attract more attention.
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amother
Apricot


 

Post Thu, Sep 06 2018, 2:56 am
amother wrote:


Unfortunately, the kid who is different looking will often attract more attention.


This for sure. And Beit Shemesh is infamous for its intolerance (as well as Ramat Beit Shemesh I think).
There are frum sectors there that are fighting tooth and nail against the existence of anything different in their midst.

These nasty teen girls are echoing their parents.
Weren't you in north Israel previously? Did you find them more tolerant?

Anyway you have my empathy. I despise people like that. I find the best thing to do is to try and place yourself in situations (school, job etc) without such toxic losers. It's so hard to tone them out.

Try to think of a cool comeback for her for next time.
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Thu, Sep 06 2018, 3:49 am
Above amother, I think that is a broad assumption. We have no idea who these girls are or what their parents think.
As a not religious girl 20 years ago, I actually remember once discussing with my friends "is that a boy or a girl?" and giggling when we saw someone whose gender was ambiguous. It was not nice, but I don't think it had much to do with my parents. I'm guessing such appearance is also not so common to see in a frum community.

Again, I do not in any way condone the girls speaking LH or saying these things. I am just saying that I do think it is common for teenagers to be insensitive or say hurtful statements and it is not limited to one community or religion (or beit shemesh).
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 06 2018, 4:58 am
FF, how horrific and upsetting. I am so sorry your dd had to he exposed to that.

Have you read the snood threads lately? And my own “why does my attire bother you” recent thread? My guess is that the women who judge those of us who leave the house rocking a snood and slinky skirt are the mothers of these teens, and sadly probably read your post on this thread and saw nothing wrong with it. I dont know how to end it. These women are also the teachers in school who preach elitism and looking down on those who dont toe their line, but they hide behind phrases like “refined”, “classy”, “bas melech”, “would your rebbitzen dress this way” and “would the Queen of England do it?”. All fine and dandy sometimes, but too often used to look down on others, create an “other” and feel like an elite class.

I’m always davening for you both. I’m sorry for these mean girls.
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