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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 1:17 pm
While I have liked several things about Trump's presidency and disliked others. For example de-funding the Palestinian Authority until they stop the "pay for slay" against the Israelis is a welcome policy.

OTOH, I don't envy Melania and Trump's cabinet is a revolving door and his style is a lesson in nastiness.

Bob Woodward of Watergate fame has a scathing review of what Trump's aides have to do daily to keep Trump from doing something dangerous. The Democrats are demanding that John Kelly addresses this danger in Congress and the Republicans are claiming that the book is only 10 to 20% true.

So is this just a president who is great for America as long as we forget about his personality or is he as big of a danger to the world as Bob Woodward claims? Is Bob biased against Republicans from the get-go?
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Amarante









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 1:30 pm
FWIW, Woodward is a Republican and his books are meticulously researched and documented. Anything in the book is on tape in terms of interviews. - often backed up with memos and emails. Generally there are a number of sources.

He is a journalist's journalist and has provided invaluable reporting on every President since Nixon as well as on other national matters such as the Supreme Court.

It is such diversionary tactics from the Trumpists in the same way that they are attempting to smear Mueller and his staff - most of whom are also Republicans - FWIW that's worth as is Rosenstein who is supervising the investigation.

I would suggest listening to the taped phone call of Woodward with the President in which he attempted to lie about not knowing about being asked for an interview. Trump is an accomplished liar - I believe that Dowd called him an f-ing liar Smile and resigned because an attorney cannot suborn perjury.
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 1:39 pm
Amarante wrote:
FWIW, Woodward is a Republican and his books are meticulously researched and documented. Anything in the book is on tape in terms of interviews. - often backed up with memos and emails. Generally there are a number of sources.

He is a journalist's journalist and has provided invaluable reporting on every President since Nixon as well as on other national matters such as the Supreme Court.

It is such diversionary tactics from the Trumpists in the same way that they are attempting to smear Mueller and his staff - most of whom are also Republicans - FWIW that's worth as is Rosenstein who is supervising the investigation.

I would suggest listening to the taped phone call of Woodward with the President in which he attempted to lie about not knowing about being asked for an interview. Trump is an accomplished liar - I believe that Dowd called him an f-ing liar Smile and resigned because an attorney cannot suborn perjury.


I heard the interview but didn't know that Woodward is a Republican.
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Amarante









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 1:45 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I heard the interview but didn't know that Woodward is a Republican.


And why do people assume that because one's party affiliation means that one is willing to lie. There has always been a clear line in the sand for reputable mainstream journalists who separate facts which are meticulously researched and opinions.

FWIW, there are a staggering number of life long Republicans who have disowned Trump or left the Republican Party because they cannot condone his threat to the basic institutions of our constitutional democracy.

With all due respect, by even raising the issue you are buying into the divisive Trumpist policies in which people of certain ethnic backgrounds can't be judges or that criminal charges against Congressmen are because the FBI and Justice Department is pursuing a political agenda.
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SixOfWands









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 1:47 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I heard the interview but didn't know that Woodward is a Republican.


He's a registered Democrat, AFAIK. But he says that's because where he lives, the Democrats generally win, so he needs to be part of the primary process. All that said, he's no knee-jerk liberal:

https://www.mediamatters.org/b.....tly/192862
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Jeanette









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 1:51 pm
Nobody disagrees on the underlying facts. Nobody.

The defenders of Trump all say some variation of the same theme.

Yes, he's a gross disgusting chazzer and we LOVE gross disgusting chazzers!

Yes, he's a gross disgusting chazzer, that's why he gets things done.

Yes, he's a gross disgusting chazzer but it's worth it for all the great things he does.

Yes, he's a gross disgusting chazzer but so is every politician so you're being a total hypocrite by pretending to care now.

You don't hear anyone denying that he's a gross disgusting chazzer. It's hard to deny the obvious.
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Amarante









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 1:55 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
He's a registered Democrat, AFAIK. But he says that's because where he lives, the Democrats generally win, so he needs to be part of the primary process. All that said, he's no knee-jerk liberal:

https://www.mediamatters.org/b.....tly/192862


I stand corrected as I don't follow party affiliations of people unless it is relevant in some way and Woodward's party affiliation is irrelevant to judging the body of his journalistic achievements.

I am almost certain that he was a Republican (to the extent that matters) when he and Bernstein were working on the Watergate stories. I seem to remember this because it was often written about since he and Bernstein were such opposites. Woodward had served in the Navy and had strong FBI contacts which is how he was able to use Deep Throat


Last edited by Amarante on Wed, Sep 05 2018, 2:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Amarante









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 1:56 pm
deleted
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Amarante









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 1:58 pm
deleted
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SixOfWands









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 2:13 pm
Amarante wrote:
I stand corrected as I don't follow party affiliations of people unless it is relevant in some way and Woodward's party affiliation is irrelevant to judging the body of his journalistic achievements.

I am almost certain that he was a Republican (to the extent that matters) when he and Bernstein were working on the Watergate stories. I seem to remember this because it was often written about since he and Bernstein were such opposites. Woodward had served in the Navy and had strong FBI contacts which is how he was able to use Deep Throat


I don't follow it. Its irrelevant to me. But I googled his party affiliation anyway.

Woodward is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist with an excellent reputation, who was trusted by people on both sides. He has hundreds of hours of taped interviews and dozens of sources, and I am certain that Simon & Schuster's attorneys reviewed a decent percentage of them. And, based on released materials, he pretty much backs up Comey and others who have published books.

The allegations should frighten everyone, whether or not they support Trump's policies. But they won't.
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 2:17 pm
Amarante wrote:
And why do people assume that because one's party affiliation means that one is willing to lie. There has always been a clear line in the sand for reputable mainstream journalists who separate facts which are meticulously researched and opinions.

FWIW, there are a staggering number of life long Republicans who have disowned Trump or left the Republican Party because they cannot condone his threat to the basic institutions of our constitutional democracy.

With all due respect, by even raising the issue you are buying into the divisive Trumpist policies in which people of certain ethnic backgrounds can't be judges or that criminal charges against Congressmen are because the FBI and Justice Department is pursuing a political agenda.


It would be a lot easier if everything that Trump did was bad for the Jews, bad for Israel of bad for America to say "lock him up" but my taxes are lower and Israel may be safer so while I hate his personality, and his cruelty to immigrant children will make the history books, (I know, immigration is a whole separate discussion), my own life is not necessarily worse.

How is a Democrat going to affect my own life in a way to make it better or is it really for someone else?
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Jeanette









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 2:26 pm
southernbubby wrote:
It would be a lot easier if everything that Trump did was bad for the Jews, bad for Israel of bad for America to say "lock him up" but my taxes are lower and Israel may be safer so while I hate his personality, and his cruelty to immigrant children will make the history books, (I know, immigration is a whole separate discussion), my own life is not necessarily worse.

How is a Democrat going to affect my own life in a way to make it better or is it really for someone else?


So I guess you would put yourself in this camp:

Yes, he's a gross disgusting chazzer but it's worth it for all the great things he does
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 2:34 pm
Jeanette wrote:
So I guess you would put yourself in this camp:

Yes, he's a gross disgusting chazzer but it's worth it for all the great things he does


Pretty much, yes.

For example, the Democrats want single payer health care which will result in a 40% decrease in payments to doctors and hospitals which will probably cause some hospitals and other medical facilities to close. Now while single payer sounds lovey dovey toward those who don't have health care, it may cost me more tax dollars but result in fewer choices and longer waits for medical care. So I can either claim to be a good person who wants the same thing for everyone and we can all be equal or I can just admit to being a selfish person who was very happy at the lab today that I was #3 in line rather than waiting for hours for a routine test.
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Clarissa









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 2:47 pm
southernbubby wrote:
It would be a lot easier if everything that Trump did was bad for the Jews, bad for Israel of bad for America to say "lock him up" but my taxes are lower and Israel may be safer so while I hate his personality, and his cruelty to immigrant children will make the history books, (I know, immigration is a whole separate discussion), my own life is not necessarily worse.

How is a Democrat going to affect my own life in a way to make it better or is it really for someone else?
Let's not assume that what Trump wants is good for the Jews. For those of us who have family members (in my case, a child) with health issues, his desire to eliminate certain aspects of the ACA would be devastating. And I'm a Jew, as is my child.
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Clarissa









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 2:55 pm
By the way, to get a bit more specific, my child has a (usually) Jewish genetic disorder. So even the disease is Jewish.
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 3:07 pm
Clarissa wrote:
Let's not assume that what Trump wants is good for the Jews. For those of us who have family members (in my case, a child) with health issues, his desire to eliminate certain aspects of the ACA would be devastating. And I'm a Jew, as is my child.



I looked into coverage with one of these med share groups (a Jewish one out of Cleveland) and because I have a Jewish genetic missing clotting factor, I can't have that type of health coverage.

So yes, in that case, single payer would be preferable, if and only if, the care was available to begin with and the government wasn't capping it. My health care is more expensive when I have to take plasma infusions.
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SixOfWands









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 3:08 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Pretty much, yes.

For example, the Democrats want single payer health care which will result in a 40% decrease in payments to doctors and hospitals which will probably cause some hospitals and other medical facilities to close. Now while single payer sounds lovey dovey toward those who don't have health care, it may cost me more tax dollars but result in fewer choices and longer waits for medical care. So I can either claim to be a good person who wants the same thing for everyone and we can all be equal or I can just admit to being a selfish person who was very happy at the lab today that I was #3 in line rather than waiting for hours for a routine test.


"Some" Democrats want a single-payer system.

Just like "some" Republicans want to eliminate the pre-existing condition provisions of the ACA, and go back to a system where health insurers would pore over your history in an effort to deny coverage. You said you never smoked? Well, looky here. Your pediatrician had a little chat with you about the fact that you got caught smoking in the girls room in junior high. Sure, its 40 years later, andsure the cancer is unrelated, but sorry, you lied.

I don't know why anyone thinks that most doctor salaries would decrease dramatically. Or why anyone thinks hospitals would close.

No matter.

I happen to have excellent health insurance (BH). I also happen to have injured myself recently. No doctor's office would even talk to me until they ran my medical insurance. And even with the excellent insurance, the next appointment is in 3 weeks. I'm also paying hundreds of dollars for my medications, even with great insurance. Not to mention the fact that the doctor says there are 3 possible medications I can take (for a condition that is not particularly rare), but none are covered under my insurance, so my doctor has to appeal every year. So I'm not all happy happy about how easy the current system is.

Better idea. We can end the monopoly of the AMA on medical care in the US and end the artificial shortage of doctors. Offer doctors incentives to go into under-served specialties and under-served communities. Most medical schools have acceptance rates of under 5% (my niece's school is not considered a top school, and its acceptance rate is under 2%), so the whole "no one is applying to medical school! no one wants to be a doctor!" hysteria is just a lie.
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 3:17 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
"Some" Democrats want a single-payer system.

Just like "some" Republicans want to eliminate the pre-existing condition provisions of the ACA, and go back to a system where health insurers would pore over your history in an effort to deny coverage. You said you never smoked? Well, looky here. Your pediatrician had a little chat with you about the fact that you got caught smoking in the girls room in junior high. Sure, its 40 years later, andsure the cancer is unrelated, but sorry, you lied.

I don't know why anyone thinks that most doctor salaries would decrease dramatically. Or why anyone thinks hospitals would close.

No matter.

I happen to have excellent health insurance (BH). I also happen to have injured myself recently. No doctor's office would even talk to me until they ran my medical insurance. And even with the excellent insurance, the next appointment is in 3 weeks. I'm also paying hundreds of dollars for my medications, even with great insurance. Not to mention the fact that the doctor says there are 3 possible medications I can take (for a condition that is not particularly rare), but none are covered under my insurance, so my doctor has to appeal every year. So I'm not all happy happy about how easy the current system is.

Better idea. We can end the monopoly of the AMA on medical care in the US and end the artificial shortage of doctors. Offer doctors incentives to go into under-served specialties and under-served communities. Most medical schools have acceptance rates of under 5% (my niece's school is not considered a top school, and its acceptance rate is under 2%), so the whole "no one is applying to medical school! no one wants to be a doctor!" hysteria is just a lie.


Various people have run the numbers on single payer care and have examined the health care in various countries and have estimated that single payer would result in less pay to doctors and hospitals causing them to close. Part of single payer is for the government of fix the price or control the cost of drugs and procedures. Also, many doctors will be replaced with cheaper specialties such as nurse practitioners, PAs, pharmacists, etc.

Have a refua shleima. By tomorrow, I won't be able to comment on the thread I started because I am driving to Pittsburgh with DH.
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Jeanette









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 3:37 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Various people have run the numbers on single payer care and have examined the health care in various countries and have estimated that single payer would result in less pay to doctors and hospitals causing them to close. Part of single payer is for the government of fix the price or control the cost of drugs and procedures. Also, many doctors will be replaced with cheaper specialties such as nurse practitioners, PAs, pharmacists, etc.

Have a refua shleima. By tomorrow, I won't be able to comment on the thread I started because I am driving to Pittsburgh with DH.


The healthcare system is complicated. Some people ended up with worse health insurance after ACA, many people were helped and had access they didn't have before.

This is a bipartisan issue and I'd love to see a bipartisan effort to sit down and say, ok, let's look at what's working, what's not working and how we can fix it. Not "Obamacare bad! Obamacare bad!" Remember Trump's promise to overturn the ACA and replace it with something better that would be cheaper and cover more people? Never happened. Instead he did everything in his power to undermine the ACA and make premiums go up. Now they're fighting in court to declare the ACA unconstitutional and remove protections for preexisting conditions.

Who held CHIP funding hostage for months, leaving many parents in doubt whether their kids would get healthcare?

Is single payer the answer? Well, it would depend a lot on how its structured. But most of all it depends on having a government and society that is committed to solving our healthcare problems. That truly sees value in everyone having access to healthcare. Anyone can be sick. Anyone can be poor. Even if you work hard and save money all your life.

This isn't a political issue. We should ALL want a healthcare system that works well for as many people as possible. Of course we will disagree how to get there. But we ALL need to make a good faith effort to solve problems. Not just to knock down solutions because you dont like which side they're coming from.
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PinkFridge









  


Post  Wed, Sep 05 2018, 3:51 pm
Clarissa wrote:
Let's not assume that what Trump wants is good for the Jews. For those of us who have family members (in my case, a child) with health issues, his desire to eliminate certain aspects of the ACA would be devastating. And I'm a Jew, as is my child.


If this got Clarissa out of the woodwork (not going to stalk you to see if you have any other recent posts) let's keep discussing Trump.

And great avatar for a Woodward thread Wink
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