Can non jews make mofsim?

imasoftov

Sun, Sep 16 2018, 4:16 am

"We learn from Parashat Beshalach a greatly important lesson: The "miracle" - revelation itself, and even the man inspired to sing to God in response to a miracle of revelation; all these are but a passing fad which has no long-lasting influence on future events. It is not the poetry, the song of life that persists, but the prose of life.

...Miracles and all other supernatural events are revealed as irrelevant from a religious perspective, or at the very least, we can say that they are ineffective in forming a basis for religious faith. The generation that witnessed the miracles and wonders did not believe! If we do say, "They had faith in the Lord and in His servant Moses." (14:31), it was faith of the moment for the fleeting moment that they experienced the feeling of victory. But afterwards, it was all gone."

-- Yishayahu Leibowitz

Batsheva1

Sun, Sep 16 2018, 1:56 pm

The op's question is very odd to me. My question back is, can Jews make mofsim? She must be very naive if she believes that. I do believe in the stories of the tanach- it's the basis of our religion and emunah, but I don't believe outright miracles have been done since then. It's the same as when the Christians go to certain places and believe supposed miracles happen (like Brazil, Mexico, etc) and the statue of Yoshke opens it's eyes or moves it's head, or some quack fake "miracle worker" cures someone of cancer or makes a lame person walk. Do Jews actually believe this stuff?? It's cultish. And on top of that, they want their child to believe in yiddishkeit more and believe it to be the true religion by these supposed stories? To believe in Judaism because of stories that people claimed happened hundreds of years ago by people they never met or saw. One of our proofs that mamad har sinai happened for real is, that the whole nation was there and experienced it and a whole nation can't make such a claim if it didn't really happen. But one or a few people tell of a supposed miracle that happened and that is enough for a foundation of truth? Then why is our religion any different than Christianity or Islam which make similar claims? It's a very weak argument and if her son is half intelligent, the op pushing such stories won't inspire him to believe, but the opposite. This comment makes me so sad because it really confirms to me how we have lost our way and our religion has gotten so diluted and weakened. The miracle of our times is how we came out literally from the ashes and rebuilt everything- our people hood, a State, institutions of Torah learning, and the many contributions to science and technology. That is powerful and shows how Hashem loves us. The story of our survival is a miracle, something we all see and have experienced and that is a place to start to believe that Hashem, his Torah, and yiddishkeit are true. One last comment, we can be inspired by the behavior and character of our Greats of the past. We can how to be a good Jew. That should be the lesson. Not so called miracles.

Mommyg8

Sun, Sep 16 2018, 2:10 pm

amother wrote:

So dh is struggling with yidishkeit. I tried to inspire him by having him read books where some tzadikim made actual miracles happen. He says that there are several reliable instances where non Jews also caused miracles such as curing the sick. Do you think this is possible?

I just want to point out that we have no idea if many of these stories are actually true. Both the Jewish stories and the non-Jewish stories. So I think this is probably the wrong direction to go....

I personally like Rabbi Miller tzl and ybc Rabbi Reisman and Rabbi Brog, and I have also heard that people like Rabbi Orlofsky. But maybe he would rather speak to a Rav or someone one on one - you'd be surprised how many questions can be answered rather easily by someone knowledgeable.

amother

Cobalt

Sun, Sep 16 2018, 8:27 pm

Batsheva1 wrote:

Thank you for your reply. I suppose you're right, we don't have indisputable evidence that our gedolim had miracles happen to them or that they caused miracles to happen to others. That being said, there are many miracle stories about the Lubavitcher rebbe including one that was on the front page of the 5towns paper this week. Stories like this as well as many similar stories about our gedolim that are in artscroll books and other Judaic publications I always presumed to be true. Are you suggesting it's possible they are ALL made up in an effort to stimulate and rally the masses? I find that hard to believe.

Mommyg8

Sun, Sep 16 2018, 9:04 pm

smileyfaces wrote:

A simple answer is yes.
We see that from the magicians in Mitzrayim who were able to copy some of the makkos and also turn their staffs to snakes. There is an acknowledgment that they can do real magic (to an extend, they couldn’t copy kinim because they could not make something from nothing).

Nobody in today's world is turning staffs into snakes, not frum Jews and not non-jews.

Is there a koyach hatumah? Yes, you will hear "miracles" from the Christian world as well. There is a very basic explanation for this - which iz rhr concept of bechirah - free will.

Bechirah is one of the basic explanations for most of our challenging questions. As I have heard explained, if all the tzaddikim would be rich and healthy and live till 100, then everyone would become gairim, and everyone would be frum. So there would be no bechirah, and there would be no schar. And there would be no purpose in living. The point of this world -olom hazeh - is the challenge.

smileyfaces

Sun, Sep 16 2018, 9:32 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

The reason I said a “simple answer” because I was just saying that yes there have been times when it has happened. I wasn’t talking specifically about how it does or does not relate to OP’s situation.

Batsheva1

Mon, Sep 17 2018, 12:48 pm

amother wrote:

I am very skeptical about those stories of miracles, yes, and you should be too. I take all those stories with a grain of salt. I've heard from Rabbi Berel Wein and others regarding amazing stories about gedolim, " They may not be true, but they don't say such things about you and me." The point is not, if these stories are true (because many probably aren't and they should not be a basis for our belief in Judaism) but what we can learn from them and also it helps us appreciate their greatness because such things are not attributed to the average person. Also, I'm not really sure what miracles you're talking about. Maybe the power of tefilah, we daven and sometimes Hashem answers yes (He just as often answers "no" but we know not everything we wish for is what Hashem has planned for us) A great Tzaddik may have a close connection to Hashem and Hashem may answer his tefilah, but is that a miracle or the power of tefilah? Also I must add that as I get older, something that disturbs me in our community is it's insularity to the degree that non Jews are considered persona non grata as if Hashem doesn't care about them. We are such a small number in the world (maybe 15 million) There are billions of people in the world -BILLIONS!! Hashem created all those people for nothing? They don't count? Preposterous and arrogant!! When a non Jew sincerely prays to G-d, it counts as well and "miracles" could happen. Their prayer can be answered as well and they may be cured from cancer or can win the lottery, or whatever. I've met genuinely G-d fearing and spiritual non Jews. To say we're better and Hashem only answers our prayers is wrong. Furthermore we can see it's simply not true. You should tell your son, he was born a Jew. He has a specific tafkid and it's a privilege for us to follow the Torah because that is our purpose as Jews. Non Jews are also important and they have their tafkid. They are Hashem's as well and Hashem cares very much about ALL his creations. They are not nothing or even close to nothing.We don't have to put others down and think badly about non Jews (the mass majority of the world) to make ourselves special and important. So, basically, I think you're coming from the wrong angle to inspire your son to yiddishkeit. I wish good (I'm not sure about the miracle thing) for all of humanity, not just Jews. Even if non Jews could do so called mofsim so be it. I can fagin that (if I believed it was a literal miracle- which I don't) That doesn't make being Jewish any less important or less special. We follow Judaism because it's our destiny, we're a link in the chain and Hashem wants us to continue, that's why we made it this far. Okay, I think I've lectured enough.