Help me understand Kapparos Protesters and Abortion

ally

Sun, Sep 16 2018, 10:47 am

amother wrote:

The reason hashem created animal is for us humans to benefit from & have what to eat. The animals where created to be slaughtered.

But Hashem also commanded that animals be treated well. Not stuffed in tiny cages and transported miles withou food and water for the convenience of city dwelling people who incidentally often don’t know how to hold them and injure them. Tzaar baalei chayim is doraita. Not sure how a (questionable) minhag trumps this.

MrsDash

Sun, Sep 16 2018, 10:55 am

amother wrote:

Not that enjoyable, that you don’t eat them.

Are you kidding me? I love me some chicken wings and a nice juicy steak. Another reason to like chickens more than people, unless you’re into soylent green...

MrsDash

Sun, Sep 16 2018, 10:58 am

Seas wrote:

From my experience, with people who express such sentiments, the feeling is usually mutual.

You’re so funny! Oh my, funniest thing I’ve seen all day. You are just hilarious. Love it. Keep it up. You’re doing great!

amother

Powderblue

Sun, Sep 16 2018, 11:10 am

MrsDash wrote:

Are you kidding me? I love me some chicken wings and a nice juicy steak. Another reason to like chickens more than people, unless you’re into soylent green...

B"H! Praise the Lord that you dont love people as much, or you might enjoy consuming a human steak.

amother

Seagreen

Sun, Sep 16 2018, 11:21 am

amother wrote:

Nicely written, but for me personally, its hard to fathom how anyone can take a very vocal stand and be more upset about the mistreatment and pain of chickens than the mistreatment and pain of humans, and NOT take a very vocal stand against it.

If theyre equally emotional and outspoken about both, I can understand.

I think its understood that some of the PETA fan protesters who come to the Jewish neighborhoods are just plain Jew haters, throwing out "Free Palestine" and comparisons to Hitler while theyre at it.

I can't understand anti-death penalty and pro- abortion people.

amother

Dodgerblue

Sun, Sep 16 2018, 11:28 am

There are people who feel life starts at birth, not conception or any other time before.
There are people who see animals and people on equal footing.
There are people who think animals are superior.
There are people who don't think at all.
So many reasons a person might protest against one but not the other. I wouldn't waste too much time worrying about which protests random strangers chose to participate in. What's the difference?

oliveoil

Sun, Sep 16 2018, 11:41 am

ally wrote:

As a meat eater, I can’t oppose kappores done on the individual level and can even appreciate the impact of the minhag... in the way it was done in the shtetl. Where you took your own chicken to the local shochet and then ate it for the seudah.
The mass kappores that is done today is pure tzaar baalei chayim. I don’t know how anyone can support it.

This, 100%.

amother

Powderblue

Sun, Sep 16 2018, 11:46 am

ally wrote:

I feel the same, and possibly an organization should be formed and get the Haskamas of Rabbis, one by one.

But I still feel most of the protesters are no fans of Jews for many other reasons.

amother

Linen

Sun, Sep 16 2018, 3:01 pm

amother wrote:

I feel the same, and possibly an organization should be formed and get the Haskamas of Rabbis, one by one.

But I still feel most of the protesters are no fans of Jews for many other reasons.

Yes. But asking ‘are these people also protesting abortion doesn’t prove that’.

Kiwi13

Sun, Sep 16 2018, 3:21 pm

amother wrote:

This sums it all up for me.

nchr

Sun, Sep 16 2018, 6:08 pm

amother wrote:

Does anyone know what PETA's sentiments on abortion are?

Anyone against the slaughter of animals should be equally aghast at the wholesale slaughter of humans.

According to WHO, every year in the world there are an estimated 40-50 million abortions. This corresponds to approximately 125,000 abortions per day. In the USA, where nearly half of pregnancies are unintended and four in 10 of these are terminated by abortion, there are over 3,000 abortions per day.

Check this out:

http://www.worldometers.info/abortions/

And how many of those abortions are for children who would otherwise have severe diseases and poor qualities of life? Mothers and families who could in no way raise them? Mothers who are drug addicted and unable to get off drugs? Children who are endangering the lives of mothers? Even Judaism allows abortions under certain circumstances and does not consider a fetus at all points? Come on, you don't want to live in a society where abortion is outlawed.

As for kapparos, I've been disappointed in some of the treatment I've witnessed: worked throwing the chickens, heat, etc.; however, it is our minhag and so I try to do it with the most respect and care possible. For someone who does not understand the meaning behind it, it could definitely appear to be horrific. PETA protests lots of things though and IMO I couldn't care less.

amother

Mauve

Sun, Sep 16 2018, 8:17 pm

nchr wrote:

As for kapparos, I've been disappointed in some of the treatment I've witnessed: worked throwing the chickens, heat, etc.; however, it is our minhag and so I try to do it with the most respect and care possible. For someone who does not understand the meaning behind it, it could definitely appear to be horrific. PETA protests lots of things though and IMO I couldn't care less.

I wonder what our reaction would be if our Mexican (or any other culture) neighbors would be the ones having a gathering where they fling chickens around their heads while chanting prayers. And the chickens would all be squeezed into tiny cages, without proper food and water.

We'd probably be the ones suggesting Avodah Zarah, pagan activities, animal torture etc.

Librarian

Sun, Sep 16 2018, 9:34 pm

I grew up with the minhag of using chickens for kapparos. I made a huge effort to continue this while I was in Israel for sem many years ago when it was very difficult to find. As a young mother I kept it up for several years. But (as opposed to where I grew up in Bklyn) the HORRIBLE tzar baalei chaim that goes on where I have lived for the past 25 years became too much to bear and we just use $ that we drop off at a very worthy tzedakah.

DrMom

Mon, Sep 17 2018, 4:51 am

amother wrote:

Let me begin by saying my family hasnt done Kapparos with chickens for many years, since DH heard that some Rabbonim are against it (Im not sure which Rabbonim).

But Im not sure that the same livid Kapparos protesters who despise and wildly decry cruelty to animals, are equally upset with ripping fetuses out of the bodies of women.

Do they also protest at abortion clinics?

Why not?

Because if the very viable fetus is in a woman's body, the woman should have the right to choose whether to murder it?

PETA is a special interest group which focuses on animal rights, not human rights.

Why would they protest at abortion clinics?

chanchy123

Mon, Sep 17 2018, 5:31 am

Can't believe I'm defending PETA. The big difference between "pro-life" and "pro-choice" is not whether they care about murdering human lives, rather what they consider "human life".
People who support abortions don't consider fetuses as humans. That is not necessarily the halachic perspective, but that is what they believe (or convince themselves is the truth).

I do understand where you are coming from though, I figure, if you have the time and energy to fight for a cause - make it a human cause. Why waste your efforts on animals when so many humans need help and there are so many ways to help humans. It is actually cruel in my mind to an animal rights activist to this degree.

I think a better comparison might be people who support euthanasia and animal rights activists.

I do suspect there is a correlation between people are so makpid on the well being of animals and people who are very minimizing in human lives they consider worth saving (fetuses and terminally ill people)/

Alternative

Mon, Sep 17 2018, 6:15 am

I don't understand this whole conversation. Tzaar ba'aei chaim is wrong. Period.

Are other wrongs being perpetuated in the world as we speak? Yes. Are some of these wrongs much worse than kapparot? Yes, of course. Does that mean one can only protest the most severe things?

People focus on what speaks to them. It's good that there are people out there that care for animal rights and are fighting to stop their suffering.

Maybe nobody should focus on any injustice at all, because everything pales next to the mass genocide occuring right now in some country? Or wouldn't it be better if everyone shed some light on the injustices that most speak to them?

(And, as others have said, it's not like pro-choice people support murder. They don't think a fetus has the status of a human being. BTW, neither does halacha).

Teomima

Mon, Sep 17 2018, 8:33 am

amother wrote:

I can't understand anti-death penalty and pro- abortion people.

This might sound nitpicky but it's an important clarification:
There's no such thing as "pro abortion." There's pro choice, believing that a woman should have the right to choose an abortion should she so desire, but it's not like pro choice advocates are actually "pro abortion" and running around trying to convince pregnant women with desired pregnancies to get a needless abortion. Why is this so important to recognize? Because there are plenty of women, myself included, who are pro choice yet still anti-abortion (to differentiate between pro life). What's the difference, you may ask? I would never, ever have an abortion myself, but I fully believe in every woman's right to choose one should she feel it necessary.

And OP, that first link you provided, that comment was about late-term abortion. Pro-choice advocates are usually talking about first-trimester abortions when discussing termination by personal choice (vs medical termination).

But why in the world are you comparing it to kaparot? I'm totally against tsar baalei chaim and yes, I'm a vegetarian to boot, but I would never compare a chicken's life to a human's. Totally confused by your "logic."

oakandfig19

Mon, Sep 17 2018, 9:28 am

Isn't there much more of a halachic basis for abortion then for mistreating animals? I'm not really understanding the question. Many women have been given psaks that they can do an abortion in certain situations- it's not a Jewish perspective to be categorically opposed to abortion.

On the other hand, causing harm to animals is tzaar balei chaim. Yet for some reason, we conveniently forget that when we swing chicken over our heads and transport them in horrible conditions. I'm going to have to disagree with the premise of your argument...the majority of the time abortion takes place early on, when many rabbis hold there is room to have an abortion if the woman's life or emotional wellbeing is in danger. In any other circumstance, I can't see a rabbi giving permission to torment animals in order to perform a minhag.

That being said, I realize that many of the protesters have turned this into anti-semitism, which is wrong.

Yet at the same time, I honestly feel that we're causing huge chilulei Hashem with kapparot.