Why is this a thing???

debsey

Mon, Sep 17 2018, 5:04 pm

Squishy wrote:

Are you the person who asked Fox to send the meds over on a list serve? Because otherwise your answer is out of place.

I travel to third world countries and am able to get meds whatever I travel not knowing the language and the doctors there. I don't know a lot about EY never having lived there but knowing doctors trained there. The doctors are of the highest caliber. While I never questioned EY's health system, I assume that it is the highest quality. I'd that's not true, please inform me. That was what I was questioning. BTW, meds are much cheaper out of the country.

My question had nothing to with taxes on meds. It had to do with availability.

It seems you are uninformed about how things work.

There are certain conditions, not only psychiatric, but also conditions like epilepsy or tic disorders, where exact dosages of medication matter, and even slight changes in the formulation can make a huge difference.

Israel may only have the generic, or the liquid, or the injectable dose, and the kid may need his or her exact medication, in the precise measured format it's being currently administered in. Different formulations of the same medication will sometimes react differently. Frequently, insurance companies in the US will prescribe the medication and tell the parents to send it overseas. They do provide documentation, so if the person carrying the medication is asked about it, she can show that it's a legally prescribed medication.

A certified courier (because you can't risk sending something like that in the mail) will charge upwards of 200.00 a delivery. If you are paying a copay for the medication, and you're paying for a much higher level of medical insurance for your kid in Israel, that cost will really make a difference.

You don't want someone trying a "similar" medication, that can set back their therapeutic gains half a year, when she's miles and miles away from home. That could have tragic consequences. She's not near the specialists that know her history, and things can go extremely awry.

I see nothing wrong with a parent in that situation asking for a chessed. I see nothing wrong in someone saying no, my luggage is already overweight.

But it would really be terrible if someone who is already coping with a child with a serious, chronic condition (in the stressful years right before shidduchim) to also have to cope with people's judgmental attitudes.

33055

Mon, Sep 17 2018, 6:00 pm

debsey wrote:

Wow, I touched a nerve.

I don't know anything about psych medication BH. I asked a polite question never even thinking of psych meds because it is not part of my universe.

And now you have me judgmental to, Hashem knows who, their crucial year right before shidduchim.

Whenever I needed medication overseas, it was always cheaper, and I had no problem with quality. And the price was much cheaper than my co-pay is in the US.

It seemed a legitimate question. I was not aware of the red tape and the difficulties obtaining OTC meds. What's wrong with finding out about subject you know nothing about?

BTW, the questions are not totally rhetorical as I will be sending my kids there.

Cheiny

Mon, Sep 17 2018, 7:06 pm

amother wrote:

My family and I are going to Eretz Yisrael for sukkos. I am so shocked by the amount of random people who called me asking to bring stuff to Israel for them- I'm not talking about my close friends, family etc. For them I am happily bringing and I think it is a totally normal thing to do because of my relationship with them. But people I am not close with-acquaintances at best-why is it normal for them to put me on the spot and ask me if I have room in my suitcase? Just today I have been asked by 6 people.
I know that this seems to be commonly done, but am I wrong for thinking this is rude?

No, you’re not wrong at all. If it’s not close family or friend asking, it’s totlaly inappropriate, unless it’s a tiny item or money. Especially since you’re only allowed two suitcases and overage costs more.

debsey

Mon, Sep 17 2018, 8:59 pm

Squishy wrote:

I have a few questions. My intent is curiosity.

Y not get the meds in EY?

Is all this to defraud the government? I wouldn't be comfortable, myself, participating in tax fraud. I would be so nervous that I would probably set off the profilers. It seems really widespread - almost like a game.

It also seems ironic to support EY with tzedukah and then turn around and steal from the people you are supporting.

Tax/ medicaid/ section 8/ soc sec fraud are all justified by saying that they are stealing from g○yim. In this case, the government is yidden. How to justify stealing?

Squishy wrote:

These were your two posts.

I responded, explaining what that experience is like. Yes, I was strong about the "stealing" allegation. It's not true and it's totally unfair. I also explained that you actually frequently cannot get the exact same medication in EY, and with some conditions, that's not something you can play games with.

Here's your response.

Squishy wrote:

You seem to feel that I am judging you harshly on erev YK. However, your first post clearly states that your belief is that people who are trying to send meds to EY are doing so fraudulently, to steal from the govmt of Israel.

Yes, your response really did hit a nerve. I've been involved in the healthcare system, and I see what parents go through when they have a child with a chronic condition who wants to study abroad. To accuse those parents, who are already usually stretched quite thin (what with all the extra costs managing chronic conditions entails) of stealing is unfair.

You ask if you're uniformed about the system. I responded that you are. Clearly, you've never tried to help someone get a desperately needed specific dose of a very specific medication overseas, or the concept of "stealing" would not enter your mind.

If even one person reads your post and thinks that the intent of parents who are attempting to get a kid her blood sugar, Crohn's, epilepsy, or psychiatric meds is to defraud the government, and says no as a consequence, that would really put an unfair burden on the family. There's nothing illegal about transporting meds for someone, provided you have proper documentation.

I can understand someone hesitating because if you don't know the person well, maybe drugs will be disguised as legitimate meds, and the courier could get into trouble. But don't assume that everyone is out to defraud.

I'm sorry if you were hurt, but this is a topic that anyone who has personal experience with will understand just how hurtful the "stealing" allegation is.

amother

White

Mon, Sep 17 2018, 9:40 pm

amother wrote:

they must feel reasonably close to you, since they know you are going to Israel.

Its not rude... since its commonly done...

not so long ago, baggage allowances were bigger - it almost felt as if you were being invited to bring along extras. (minus the security questions...)

I actually think its nice that people feel like one big community helping each other out.

(actually makes me feel good to bring people things when I can).

Seas

Mon, Sep 17 2018, 9:42 pm

amother wrote:

How is this different from asking a stranger for a hitch? Have you never done that at say a wedding? God knows how many times I've hitched rides from vague acquaintances or even complete strangers.

If it's a small item, and the person doesn't pressure you or expect you to go to great lengths to deliver it, why not ask?

We're Yidden. We do chesed.

33055

Mon, Sep 17 2018, 9:57 pm

debsey wrote:

I actually felt you had a reading comprehension issue, but I see my post could have been interpreted your way only if you think there is a tax on meds entering EY for personal use.

Question 1, why not get the meds in EY? I was not thinking psych meds in the slightest. I also was not thinking about taxes on meds since it doesn't exist on personal meds for travelers. In the US, meds are much more expensive than elsewhere. My question was why not get them where cheaper. It is big business getting meds sent to the US from out of the country for instance.

Question 2 which no one bothered to respond to had to do with stealing from the government to avoid taxes with all the stuff that is sneaked into EY.

I am still curious if you are allowed to steal from the government if the government is yidden. It seems a national game to avoid paying taxes.

OBnursemom

Mon, Sep 17 2018, 10:14 pm

Squishy wrote:

I assume people sending medications to E”Y from the US are probably sending to either students or visitors. I fail to see how either of those instances would be Israeli tax fraud. Especially since non-citizen visitors get their VAT refunded in the airport when they leave.

amother

White

Mon, Sep 17 2018, 10:15 pm

Squishy wrote:

Your posts read as follows:

Why would somoene not get meds in EY? following by a suggested answer, because they are looking to defraud the government.. and then commentary on that suggested answer as if it was a forgone conclusion. and then your follow up question was about why a Yid would defraud the government.

so since several people have told you the intent to defraud the government is NOT why people ship meds to EY rather than purchasing them there... answering your second question is completely unnecessary.

(and you are the first person who talked about participating in tax fraud... you introduced the idea).

debsey

Mon, Sep 17 2018, 11:28 pm

amother wrote:

Thank you, white.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who read it that way.

I'm still curious who exactly is being defrauded?

debsey

Mon, Sep 17 2018, 11:38 pm

Squishy wrote:

You keep using the term defrauded and you're talking about avoiding paying taxes.

Who is avoiding paying taxes on what? You seem to understand that there is no tax on medication being brought in to the country. So who would be defrauding the government?

In terms of why send them - Suppose you have someone who takes a very expensive medication (Let's say a single bimonthly dose costs 600.00 in the US). If her own US insurance pays for it, she has a copay of 40.00. In Israel, she can get a similar drug for 300.00 (we have already explained that similar is not "exactly the same", and this can matter a great deal in healthcare.) If the medication costs her 40.00 out of pocket in the US, and 300.00 out of pocket in Israel, it kind of makes sense to get it in the US and get it sent to Israel. Keep in mind that unlike America, she may have to pay yet more out of pocket to have the medication mixed, injected under a doctor's supervision, etc. in Israel. So this is not a simple undertaking. If someone helps out by bringing the medication, it's a big help.

We've established that there's no fraud or chicanery or any other problem.

In terms of packages to Israel, I would imagine most people sending packages to students are sending a collage of family pics, or Mommy baked some cookies and wants to send her son a taste of home, or the kid forgot her retainer or spare pair of glasses. Not exactly contraband and not exactly the kind of stuff that would be taxed.

again, you keep asking "why is it OK to steal from the government since they're Yidden?" (I think my reading comprehension is up to the task of understanding your question). My imagination isn't all that great, I guess. Who is stealing? What's the theft? What's being stolen?

33055

Tue, Sep 18 2018, 12:02 am

debsey wrote:

I explained the medication question had nothing to do with tax. Travelers are not charged tax on their medications. You also seem to understand that, so I don't know why you confused my first post regarding a non- existant tax. You imagined a tax. And then imagined the question was defrauding the government on a non- existant tax on medications. You also imagined a non- existant mentally ill person I offended who was going to have a stressed year the year after this one because of me.
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Different question is the one on defrauding the government. The stuff being brought in discussed on this thread includes things like the silver and the new clothes to avoid the tax which quite high. The average duty rate is 50%, and the purchase tax can go as high as 278% according to an Isreali government site. Let's not pretend the items being transferred are only used retainers and non-taxed items.

My understanding is the retainer, glasses, family pics, and mom's cookies are not subject to tax in any event.

debsey

Tue, Sep 18 2018, 12:13 am

Squishy wrote:

Clearly, people who are tricking other people into smuggling for them are not exactly fine and upstanding citizens. A beard or a frock coat or a hat and jacket do not a tzadik make. Just because someone wears the "uniform" doesn't mean he "walks the walk."

I don't think anyone on here thinks its OK to smuggle or that it's OK to trick people into committing crimes for you. But you were responding to the posters who were talking about being inundated with requests to bring packages to kids in Israel. That's just not smuggling.

If you were responding to the guy who asked for his supposed kiddush cup to be brought, and then it turned out to be a slick smuggling ring, I don't think anyone was reading that and saying "yeah, that guy was totally right to do that. Stick it to the Israeli government."

And then all of your questions about sending meds to Israel and your comments about defrauding - I needed to set the record straight. There's no fraud involved in that, and anyone who does that chessed is amazing.