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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Rosh Hashana-Yom Kippur
Why is it more important to fast than to daven?
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violet1




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 1:50 am
I haven't been to shul on Yom Kippur for 5 years, when I was pregnant with my first child. Since then, I've fasted with and without shiurim, and during different stages of motherhood, all leaving me with no energy to daven.
I don't feel any connection to the day when fasting and I'm sure I would have a more meaningful day if I could eat so that when I have down time from taking care of the kids, I would be able to daven instead of sleep.
So why is it more important to Hashem that I fast rather than make a true connection to the day through davening?
I'm happy to hear any helpful thoughts, since I'll be in the same situation next year.
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Cookiegirl




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 2:02 am
Eating on Yom Kippur is a d'oreisa transgression that is chayav kareis. Davening is a d'rabbanan. Even if you don't "feel" Yom Kippur because you are not davening, you are observing the commandments of the day by fasting.
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amother
Aubergine


 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 2:04 am
Because Hashem wrote the Torah and put fasting in there in black and white. Not a word about davening. Now, davening is an important part of the day, especially absent a Beis HaMikdash, but fasting is the big deoraisa and eating is an issur kareis. So clearly that is what Hashem wants the most from us on YK. Why more than davening, I have no idea. But that's what it is. I get you, it's hard. I always to make sure to make some sort of child care arrangement for at least part of the day, not just to help in terms of the fast, but so that I can spend some time davening, because yeah, it is easier to find meaning and connect through the davening (and I love RH and YK davening, I think it's so beautiful). But ultimately the fast is where it's at, so that is the priority.
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violet1




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 2:06 am
Cookiegirl wrote:
Eating on Yom Kippur is a d'oreisa transgression that is chayav kareis. Davening is a d'rabbanan. Even if you don't "feel" Yom Kippur because you are not davening, you are observing the commandments of the day by fasting.


That much I know. But I'm wondering why Hashem would want us to fast when we could be making a more meaningful connection for ourselves.
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violet1




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 2:09 am
amother wrote:
Because Hashem wrote the Torah and put fasting in there in black and white. Not a word about davening. Now, davening is an important part of the day, especially absent a Beis HaMikdash, but fasting is the big deoraisa and eating is an issur kareis. So clearly that is what Hashem wants the most from us on YK. Why more than davening, I have no idea. But that's what it is. I get you, it's hard. I always to make sure to make some sort of child care arrangement for at least part of the day, not just to help in terms of the fast, but so that I can spend some time davening, because yeah, it is easier to find meaning and connect through the davening (and I love RH and YK davening, I think it's so beautiful). But ultimately the fast is where it's at, so that is the priority.


So if you don't manage to do anything on Yom Kippur, do you make time for yourself beforehand to do something meaningful in preparation of the day?
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shshsh




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 2:16 am
Because we are all in the wrong when we think Yiddishkeit is about how we feel. Yes, it’s great if we feel a connection AND we fast, but fasting is number one. The other thing that is number one is being mother to our children. Obviously, with these two present, HKBH knows our resources will be depleted, yet he STILL commands us to fast, not to pray.

The reason for this is because YK is a day of atonement and part of obtaining that forgiveness from G-d is by fasting. Praying is great, but it’s not what gets us what we need from YK, atonement for our sins.

Hopefully next year, you will have the energy to mouth some words of prayer (in any language), even if you are half asleep, groggy, or have no energy.

This year you fulfilled your obligations. Hashem saw what you did and He will bless you with a wonderful year be’H!
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amother
Jade


 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 2:23 am
OP: just wanted to tell you that I have a young child am and pregnant and I only davened for about 15 minutes on YK, did it pretty early while my child was napping. If I had more than one child, I might not have even been able to get that 15 min in, but doing that 15 min (I read vidui + a bit after) made me feel pretty good.
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Cookiegirl




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 2:23 am
Not sure if this will be helpful, but a big part of the Yamim Noraim is to nullify yourself and accept Hashem as the King- Ein Od Milvado. This translates into asking for things you may need *in order to serve Hashem better* and/or accepting that not everything you think you need or want may be best for you. Fasting on Yom Kippur at the expense of being able to daven may be the thing you need to do as an act of avodah to Hashem. [Talking to myself here as well as we are having a family nisayon currently...we don't know best, we are not in control, and we don't have the "right" to an explanation or understanding, even if it would make our situation easier to bear].

This is something I have been thinking about all day, so I appreciate the opportunity to write it out and try to make it more concrete. I hope it is useful to you, but I apologize if this is not what you want to read, or not written in a way that is easy to accept...
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amother
Aubergine


 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 2:39 am
violet1 wrote:
So if you don't manage to do anything on Yom Kippur, do you make time for yourself beforehand to do something meaningful in preparation of the day?


My preparation is making sure I have something in place that ensures I can do even a little bit of spiritual stuff LOL Seriously, even just an hour of davening does wonders for bringing meaning to the day and feeling less sulky about not being able to go to shul all day. And it does help also if you can do a few YK things with the kids like read a children's book about Yonah or something. I absolutely HATE that mashal about the king's nanny and will never feel any sort of spirituality from regular parenting tasks no matter how many stories you tell me about how holy it is to change diapers, but I will say being mechanech the kids (even if it's only 20 minutes because they're too little for more) helps and again, being able to arrange and hour for yourself is helpful as well (more if you can, but every little bit helps). I think you have to remember, though, as much as we strive for a connection with Hashem, the most important thing is to do what He asks, whether or not we feel a connection. When it comes to YK, that means fasting. And yes, it's not the most inspiring thing and doesn't feel so connecting, but you ARE connecting simply by doing the number one thing He said to do for the day.
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amother
Lemon


 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 3:31 am
Cookiegirl wrote:
Not sure if this will be helpful, but a big part of the Yamim Noraim is to nullify yourself and accept Hashem as the King- Ein Od Milvado.


This is amazing! Thank you so much!!!!

My avoda every Yom Kippur involves laying in bed/on the couch drinking shiurim. This is due to a medical condition, not pregnancy. So this is likely what my Yom Kippur is going to be like for the rest of my life.
This year my youngest child went off to shul and I was left alone feeling sorry for myself, not even able to tell myself I was being mechanech my children Crying
It is impossible to daven with any semblance of kavana when I am required to watch the clock and drink a tiny bit every 10 minutes and I obviously can't be in shul so the davening does nothing for me spiritually.
The answer I was always given was "this is what YOU are supposed to do on Yom Kippur" but that never resonated with me until I read what you wrote. I definitely spent every waking moment of the day nullifying myself to Hashem's will. Every tiny sip that barely wet my mouth was for Hashem. NOW, after reading this I am feeling a spiritual high, a connection to Hashem. I spent the day doing HIS will.
Thank you! You have forever changed the way I will view Yom Kippur!!!
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 6:00 am
I've kinda accepted Kippur for me is pain. It doesn't help with praying or thinking or anything.
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 6:25 am
Cookiegirl wrote:
Not sure if this will be helpful, but a big part of the Yamim Noraim is to nullify yourself and accept Hashem as the King- Ein Od Milvado.


This. And not only on YK. Hashem wants and demands we completely nullify our thoughts and desires, and accept His absolute authority. This, BTW, takes a lifetime of hard work.
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amother
Burgundy


 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 6:36 am
The 1st year I was home with a baby, I felt strange about not going to shul. Davening on my own was really quick. To help connect with the day some more, I picked up my sefer tehillim, and started saying tehillim in between feedings. Some I just said in English. By the end of YK I had said all 150. That was 21 years ago. And I've said the entire sefer on YK each year since. During pregnancies, during different stages of motherhood, it's a nice way to connect while fasting and taking care of my children.
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 7:05 am
amother wrote:
This is amazing! Thank you so much!!!!

My avoda every Yom Kippur involves laying in bed/on the couch drinking shiurim. This is due to a medical condition, not pregnancy. So this is likely what my Yom Kippur is going to be like for the rest of my life.
This year my youngest child went off to shul and I was left alone feeling sorry for myself, not even able to tell myself I was being mechanech my children Crying
It is impossible to daven with any semblance of kavana when I am required to watch the clock and drink a tiny bit every 10 minutes and I obviously can't be in shul so the davening does nothing for me spiritually.
The answer I was always given was "this is what YOU are supposed to do on Yom Kippur" but that never resonated with me until I read what you wrote. I definitely spent every waking moment of the day nullifying myself to Hashem's will. Every tiny sip that barely wet my mouth was for Hashem. NOW, after reading this I am feeling a spiritual high, a connection to Hashem. I spent the day doing HIS will.
Thank you! You have forever changed the way I will view Yom Kippur!!!


Wow!

Kol hakavod.

And mi k'amcha Yisrael. It's for stories like this that I'm addicted to imamother.
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fmt4




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 7:05 am
I don’t know if anyone else paid attention to the shacharis haftorah in Isaiah yesterday. I found it very interesting. It basically talks about how the Jews are always complaining - we fasted and prayed, why didn’t you forgive us - to G-d. And G-d basically answers back - you think I need your fasting? You think that’s what I care about, that you don’t eat or drink but meanwhile you’re nasty to your fellow Jew? The real fast that I want is for you to be kind to other people, to give charity, to stop oppression and heal those who are broken.
Literally straight out in the haftorah.
So yes, fasting is important, davening is important, but what hashem really wants is peace between people. Everything else is just gravy.
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fmt4




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 7:09 am
“Why, when we fasted, did You not see?

When we starved our bodies, did You pay no heed?”

Because on your fast day

You see to your business

And oppress all your laborers!

58:4.

Because you fast in strife and contention,

And you strike with a wicked fist!

Your fasting today is not such

As to make your voice heard on high.

58:5.

Is such the fast I desire,

A day for men to starve their bodies?

Is it bowing the head like a bulrush

And lying in sackcloth and ashes?

Do you call that a fast,

A day when G-D is favorable?

58:6.

No, this is the fast I desire:

To unlock the fetters of wickedness,

And untie the cords of the yoke

To let the oppressed go free;

To break off every yoke.

58:7.

It is to share your bread with the hungry,

And to take the wretched poor into your home;

When you see the naked, to clothe him,

And not to ignore your own kin.”
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 7:32 am
Wow, I really learned alot this morning reading all your posts.
I, too, stayed home from Shul, hardly got to daven but fasted all day.
I wish I would have seen these posts BEFORE the fast began so I would have felt better about what I was doing.
But now I feel better that I made it thru the fast all day while watching all those around me going to shul and back while I felt sorry for myself staying home.
I am sooo grateful that I did not even have to do the shiurim, which my rav told me I could if necessary.
Thank you all for your responses!
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 9:05 am
amother wrote:
This is amazing! Thank you so much!!!!

My avoda every Yom Kippur involves laying in bed/on the couch drinking shiurim. This is due to a medical condition, not pregnancy. So this is likely what my Yom Kippur is going to be like for the rest of my life.
This year my youngest child went off to shul and I was left alone feeling sorry for myself, not even able to tell myself I was being mechanech my children Crying
It is impossible to daven with any semblance of kavana when I am required to watch the clock and drink a tiny bit every 10 minutes and I obviously can't be in shul so the davening does nothing for me spiritually.
The answer I was always given was "this is what YOU are supposed to do on Yom Kippur" but that never resonated with me until I read what you wrote. I definitely spent every waking moment of the day nullifying myself to Hashem's will. Every tiny sip that barely wet my mouth was for Hashem. NOW, after reading this I am feeling a spiritual high, a connection to Hashem. I spent the day doing HIS will.
Thank you! You have forever changed the way I will view Yom Kippur!!!


I've heard this story before, but just heard it again recently so details are fresh.
Rabbi Zev Smith would go to his rebbi, Rabbi Mordechai Schwab, zt"l, on chol hamoed, as a form of "oleh regel." Once he came and was met at the door with the message that the Rav has really deteriorated and Rabbi Smith should be prepared. Well, evidently it was still obvious on Rabbi Smith's face, so Rav Schwab said this: I can still live with simcha. Real simcha. Yes, my life is circumscribed. I couldn't go to to shul. There are many things I can't do. But who put me here? Hashem put me here. So this is where I'm supposed to be. If I am living on His terms, I can be happy. This is the meaning of the words in Tehillim 30 'chayim birtzono' - life according to His terms.'"

We generally translate that to mean something along the lines of, we are alive according to His will. But this is true pshat too.

I'll tell you two more stories that get me through challenges.

One is about Tammy Karmel, who should have a refuah shleima. I heard her describe what getting a hoist to get her from wheelchair to bed, etc. was like. She was up in the air and said that it was dehumanizing. She felt like a sack of potatoes. Then she realized, that this was her life now, and she can serve Hashem from down in the chair and she can serve Hashem up in the hoist.

I used this idea myself not too long after when I needed a new phone and I wanted to buy a kosher phone. The TAG office only had keyboard phones that weren't on my plan and I wasn't going to pay $30 extra a month. So I got a neutered smart phone. It wasn't the maras ayin that bothered me: it was getting used to swiping. Then I said, I can serve Hashem with a keyboard, and I can serve Him with a swipe keyboard.

Last story, and if anyone can tell me the name of the rav, zt"l, I'd be grateful. My husband shared this one Succos, from a hesped he'd heard for the rav but we couldn't track down the name. A teenager was in a concentration camp and told this rav that he wanted to end it all, what was the point of continuing to live. The rav - Hungarian born, DL RY once in EY - asked him what he wanted to be doing. "I want to be back in yeshiva, learning."
"Why do you want to learn?"
The kid wondered if the rav still had it all together. "Because I want to learn Torah!"
"Why do you want to learn Torah?"
"Because Hashem gave it to us and wants us to learn Torah."
"And now Hashem put us in a situation where we can't learn Torah. That must be what He wants for us at this point. Staying alive is doing what He wants. Just like learning Torah when it was, and be"H will be, possible is doing what He wants."

Amother lemon: I hope you have the kochos to produce the rest of Tishrei, and function well. Amother turquoise: I am so inspired that you could read something, and hear the living message from the one dimensional words. Kol hakavod!!!


Last edited by PinkFridge on Thu, Sep 20 2018, 9:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Ruby


 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 9:27 am
Fasting is very beneficial for the health of the body. It is very cleansing. A healthy body is what we need in order to serve Hashem properly. And by the way, when the body is cleansed, it has a ripple effect on the state of mind.

Most people have no clue about food, the effects of food on our spiritual health. If we would know, we would all be eating differently (less food overall, and different foods too).
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 20 2018, 9:37 am
fmt4 wrote:
I don’t know if anyone else paid attention to the shacharis haftorah in Isaiah yesterday. I found it very interesting. It basically talks about how the Jews are always complaining - we fasted and prayed, why didn’t you forgive us - to G-d. And G-d basically answers back - you think I need your fasting? You think that’s what I care about, that you don’t eat or drink but meanwhile you’re nasty to your fellow Jew? The real fast that I want is for you to be kind to other people, to give charity, to stop oppression and heal those who are broken.
Literally straight out in the haftorah.
So yes, fasting is important, davening is important, but what hashem really wants is peace between people. Everything else is just gravy.


Absolutely.
But what Hashem really, really wants is that we have peace between people AND joyfully and carefully do His mitzvos.
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