Spiritually, can you give someone a disease by

amother

Hotpink

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 8:44 am

...getting then diagnosed with it?

I remember hearing a shiur from R Nathan Lopez Cardozo where he explained that the the fact that the halacha says that a person who disappears from a lake in presumed drowned (because you can see all the edges of the lake so you would know if he came up) but I person who disappears in the ocean is presumed to have survived (because he could have swam to a far place there you couldn't see him) creates a REALITY that the person is more likely to survive falling into the ocean than he would have done if the rabbis had decided the halacha differently.

My kid frequently tells me that I caused him to have autism by seeking a diagnosis for it. That the diagnosis caused the disorder and that it was not present before. He has certainly becomes far more autistic in his behavior since the diagnosis. But obviously quite a lot was in evidence before, that's why we sought a diagnosis

So without just dismissing the idea as ridiculous, is it possible I caused it? And if so, what, if anything, can I do to repair the damage?

What are your thoughts on this?

imasoftov

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 9:23 am

amother wrote:

I didn't hear that shiur so I don't know what he said about that halacha, but I've heard him speak on other occasions, and your conclusions don't sound to me like something he would agree with. Maybe if you changed it from spiritually giving someone a disease to a natural phenomenon, either you notice the issue more now that you're aware of it, maybe also because you've learned more about it, or he acts as he does because you expect him to. I think he'd say that having a condition is likely, assuming the diagnosis is correct, the cause of being diagnosed with that condition, rather than the diagnosis causes the condition.

Perhaps talking to him about this yourself might be helpful. There's an email for his organization on their webpage, office@cardozoacademy.org, perhaps they can forward your message to him.

amother

Olive

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 10:14 am

I believe that is a Breslov shitta.
My breslov friend told me that if you go to a doctor for a diagnosis it can chas veshalom bring the disease on a person.
She said this when I told her I have another Breslov friend that her husband was having major headaches and if they didn't check it out, she would not have a husband today, he had stage 4 cancer.
Children with ASD can sometimes have a little bit of nevuah. But I think you should go or call to a mekubal, a real one. Not one of those idiots that say abra kidabra for $100+ a session. Ask if there is such a thing.

amother

Papaya

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 10:28 am

amother wrote:

I would not immediately dismiss this idea as ridiculous... there is a truth to words having real power and so forth BUT at the same time it is the normal thing that people, when they see a health problem, be it physical or mental, seek diagnosis and treatment. And this is understood to be creating a vessel to receive healing from Hashem - not a lack of emunah and certainly not drawing down negativity or problems. I don't know of rabbis who tell people don't go see doctors, that this is somehow a lack of emuna and just daven for things to be okay. It's really not a way that I've ever heard. Big tzaddikim and rebbes also go to doctors for diagnosis and treatments. This is normal. It's very unfair what your child is telling you and I can't see how it's based on anything in yiddishkeit and you should let him speak with a rov about it to put it out of his head (and yours).

PinkFridge

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 11:31 am

amother wrote:

I don't want to burst your bubble but Nathan Lopez Cardozo is very controversial. He is no longer chareidi. He doesn't even look like a Rabbi not even a MO rabbi. And a lot of his speeches are twisted and warped. Stay away from him. Have you really seen a rabbi have long hair like that in the back? that is a very big red flag. What's interesting is is on YouTube the only has a hundred and twenty two subscribers, a real Rabbi would have way more than that.

I would have pm'd you but you're amother.
You are correct that sadly, R' Cardozo's off the reservation. However, I don't know if this was an older shiur of his.
I get your wanting to caution our OP, but for the future you should know that most of what is not helpful.

ally

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 11:41 am

amother wrote:

How many YouTube subscribers does it take to make a real rabbi?

dankbar

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 12:04 pm

I once went to a parenting class which linked kids behaviors to moms emotions. she said any child with special needs feels if mom believes in him & cud only see progress if mom believes he can achieve. if mom is worried, thinks of him as failure, embarrased in public with his behavior, shame w his diagnosis etc. even if dont verbalize & just feel it....automatically kid feels it & becomes failure. its like living up to the label.

amother

Olive

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 12:16 pm

ally wrote:

How many YouTube subscribers does it take to make a real rabbi?

Again, I did my research this man is no longer Orthodox. It's not only the YouTube subscribers. Look millions of people follow Christians and according to Judaism they are wrong.
This man is a Gateshead talmid and got smicha from Rabbi Gurawitz and he is a ger but his Yiddishkeit nebach became corrupt.

octopus

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 12:24 pm

You are grieving. There is a real sense of loss when a child gets a diagnosis. You are trying to make sense of it all and you are looking to blame yourself in order to gain some control of the situation. If you think "you did something wrong" you still feel like you were the one in control. It is a very natural response to grief btw. So I'm going to repeat, which I'm sure you heard already, it was not in your control. You did nothing to cause this. It was out of your control. Sending you ((((hugs)))).

ectomorph

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 1:41 pm

Sadly I believe rabbi cardozo is no longer orthodox, which goes to show anyone can go off the derech.

Makes no difference how he wears his hair or his YouTube subscribers. He has published articlesto that effect.

That said he was a great teacher of Torah in his time and there is something to the idea that when you name something it gets stronger.

That does not apply to your son's autism diagnosis.

amother

Chocolate

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 2:01 pm

how old is ur son that he has to know a name for his diagnosis? sometimes they use it as excuse to behave the way they want bc he has a label attached to him. its not ur fault , u didnt cause anything Hashem is in control but still tell him that u understand its difficult for him & u will get thru this together & ur here to help him & support to overcome as long as hes trying his best to do his part. that will give him a push to go further instead of attaching himself to his label. not to compare, but my son was 4 when diagnosed with cancer, we didnt tell him exactly the severity of disease or prognosis.....so he didnt have such thoughts....just pushed himself to be a normal healthy kid....which is so imp for survival....I dont share with him when his hosp playmates pass on either....

SixOfWands

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 2:06 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Labeling is hurtful but if I say I have a cold and I don't, well I don't.
Lopez Cardoso is a big time Jewish name, is he a ger? if yes then at least zera Israel!

Contrary to popular opinion, he actually is a ger. His mother was not Jewish, although she was raised by Jews. He converted. She did as well, but when he was an adult.

He's also still, and always, Orthodox (responding to others who described him disrespectfully, not to you, but I didn't feel like posting twice).

imasinger

Thu, Sep 27 2018, 2:47 pm

It's not surprising that a kid old enough to make this kind of comment (which probably falls in the 12-18 range -- old enough to think big picture, young enough to still be at home) would look to accuse and deflect.

The whole argument, however, reflects the thought process of someone who was, and probably always was, on the spectrum.

Rather than trying such a concept on for size, OP, you might be better served to think about WHY he would say such a thing.

In a world of black and white thinking, someone with a diagnosis (especially a teen), upon learning of a diagnosis, bears a significant likelihood of perceiving himself as "damaged goods."

That feels pretty awful. Lacking the maturity to see that everyone has challenges, and it's helpful to know and address your own, he only sees that whereas once he thought he was "normal", now he has been branded as -- well, not.

Add that to teen hormones, to whatever situations led to the evaluation and diagnosis, and just the normal stress of life, and you have a kid that's angry, down on himself, and looking for a place to deflect blame.

Does this sound like a possible explanation of what's happening with you, OP?