PLEASE! for the sake of basic hygiene and manners

bigsis144

Wed, Oct 03 2018, 11:06 pm

amother wrote:

Basic means to prevent the spread of germs. You can define basic as just washing with water without soap, but that's not what I consider basic.
Google it. Here's one I found:
https://www.betterhealth.vic.g.....tant:
"Dry your hands using a clean towel or air dry them
It is best to use paper towels (or single-use cloth towel)."
There are many websites that detail using clean or single use towels. Here's another:
https://infectioncontrol.tips/.....hool/
https://www.foodsafety.gov/blo......html
https://www.cdc.gov/handwashin......html

Basic is using soap and running water.

From YOUR source:

Quote:

The CDC (2015) provides these practical hand washing guidelines:

When to wash your hands:
- before and after preparing food
- before eating food
- after using the toilet
- before and after caring for someone who is sick
- after handling pets, their food or treats
- after touching garbage

How to wash your hands:
- scrub your hands with soap and water for 20 seconds
- rinse your hands under clean, running water
- dry your hands with a clean towel (or air dry them)

Now we're just quibbling over the definition of a "clean towel".

amother

Blush

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 7:00 am

Given the length of this thread, I think there are some interesting underlying issues.

Standards of cleanliness and best hygienic practices evolve because one generation has access to more information and is used to modern options.

In the not so distant past, people took a bath once a week because there was no hot running water so taking a bath was an onerous process. It's one reason that bath houses in the "old country" or in places like the Lower East Side were built.

At home people would bath in the same water in the small tin tubs that were used by everyone else because hauling water was difficult.

Similarly laundry was hard to do because there were no machines. There were no towels - no toilet paper and if there was indoor plumbing, it was a luxury and there weren't multiple toilets in the house.

My grand mother spent her childhood in Poland and there was a communal privy in the backyard - this was in the city by the way. Until the late 19th century, tenements in New York City were built without toilets and even then, there were what were called cold water flats and a communal toilet in the hallway.

So if you came from a culture in which the basic hygienic standards were a huge big deal - I.e. running water; a private indoor toilet; a bathroom with hot water - it's different. When I was growing up, my parents were not familiar with the idea of flossing your teeth as a basic part of oral hygiene and as a child I was NEVER told by a dentist to floss my teeth. I had to learn that this was important for my oral health as an adult.

Instead of posters reacting in a way that people saying that washing hands with soap and water and wanting to use a towel NOT used by unknown multiple people are being fastidious and OCD, perhaps they can take it as information and then implement it in their homes instead of throwing out excuses as to why it is impossible and crazy. It is neither difficult or expensive to have paper towels in a container in the bathroom with a wastebasket next to the sink for people to put their used paper towels in.

And for what it's worth, no one is saying you can be completely germ free so why bother to do anything. Obviously there are germs on everything and bathrooms are not necessarily the dirtiest places. However, most people KNOW that every time they touch something they are picking up stuff and therefore - without being OCD about it - try to minimize getting sick from that. I don't approach the world with a face mask and rubber gloves - on the other hand I try to wash my hands with soap and water with some frequency especially when I am out. FWIW, most of the supermarkets in my area have wipe dispensers so that you can wipe down the handles of your shopping cart - obviously there are so many other areas of contamination but for the most part when I am running errands my hands are not touching that many surfaces.

amother

Indigo

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 7:45 am

amother wrote:

I think that’s a harsh overreaction on your part. She’s not airing their bad points in public, she hasn’t named them.

I disagree and given the 75 likes my post got, so do many other people on this site. What if their hosts read this thread? What if someone recognizes a neighbor by the description? What if the hosts usually have oodles of liquid soap but forgot this one time because they were so busy creating the Seuda for their guests including OP? I stand by what I said: OP sounds ungrateful. I don’t really want to hear about other people’s hygiene standards not being good enough. I feel like I am reading Lashon Hora.

amother

Seashell

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 10:40 am

amother wrote:

The original person who posted that is completely wrong. There are no details in the post for anyone to recognize, I've been to many places without soap in the kitchen, and you have no idea which time of the year I'm referring to. Just because I posted right after Sukkos, doesn't mean I'm referring to meals that happened on Sukkos. I bet those 75 people don't offer paper towels or separate towel. You are wrong as well. If you don't want to read this post, don't read it, but don't tell me this is lashon hara when it is clearly not. It sounds like you're defensive. In the year 2018, instead of getting all upset by something you think is unnecessary, why don't you read about handwashing and see what most sources say about it.

Miri1

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 2:27 pm

Hygiene norms for a private home and for a public place are different.
You might adjust your "norms" if your private home starts to come closer to a public space due to the number of people that you are hosting over the course of a Y"T.

So if a family hand towel ususally works just fine, it might be worth switching them more often, or using paper towels if you are hosting four large families over the course of two days... that's a lot more people sharing one measly damp towel...
...and as I mentioned ealier, a lot of opportunities to catch pinworms Smile

Whatever the larger world does (ie, your secular in-laws, or whatever), it isn't really comparable to the amount of hosting and b"H numbers of kids we are talking about in the frum world, kein yirbu!

amother

Indigo

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 3:36 pm

amother wrote:

I thought I was the original person who wrote that? 🤔

The point is for me, what offended me wasn’t the hand washing issue but your ingratitude to your hosts. They invited you and you repay them by kvetching about their hygiene standards.

amother

Seashell

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 5:36 pm

amother wrote:

I didn't mean to come across as ungrateful. I'm not sure where you got that from. Any time someone invites us, we always appreciate it. But, after seeing sick people touch towels before me or people blowing their noise and then wiping their hands on the same towel without washing their hands with soap in between, or parents changing their kids dirty diaper and not wash with soap before hamotzie or any other things I've seen, I get grossed out. It's just not sanitary. Cutting up a roll of paper towels would make those guests like me so much more comfortable. If you're able to, it would make such a difference and you'd be helping prevent the spread of germs. Some people never get sick, and some people get sick more often. For those who get sick more often, you'd also be helping them out.

amother

Indigo

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 6:57 pm

amother wrote:

You don’t know for certain that the people didn’t wash with soap after diaper changes unless you were explicitly scrutinizing what they were doing. If this is the case, I wouldn’t be surprised if you don’t get an invite back. You say you are grateful but a grateful guest accepts that not everything at their host’s house is how they’d like. Just like hosts have to put up with guests and their foibles. Imagine if all members of imamother who are guests or hosts found something to complain about and do it each Shabbos or Yom Tov!

amother

Seashell

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 7:43 pm

amother wrote:

You don't have to scrutinize to see someone change their kid's diaper in front of you, listen to kiddush and wash netilas yadayim without washing with soap in between. Ungrateful would be to complain about host's food, other guests, house, furniture, messes, kids whatever. Asking people to please give out paper towels for washing isn't being ungrateful. Just basic cleanliness. But I see we define things differently.

amother

Coffee

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 7:49 pm

I think if you would phrase it as I would really appreciate if hosts could use paper towels for washing before bread. It would make me and probably other people feel more comfortable. I think a lot of people would say oh interesting point, if that will make even one guest more comfortable I would consider doing it since I want my guests to feel comfortable in my home.
You could even include a link explaining why it's a good idea.

They might also say, I guess we run in different circles, can't imagine my friends expecting that but that would be it.

When you claim that it's "basic" hygiene and manners, you are passing judgement on people who don't do it as not good enough and people don't appreciate that.

miami85

Thu, Oct 04 2018, 8:22 pm

amother wrote:

This!

amother

Wheat

Fri, Oct 05 2018, 2:47 am

Sounds like OCPD. Going to a chlorinated mikvah and still being the first one? (They don't change the water day to day... And they clean the rooms between people!!). Thinking about the possibility/feasibility of just making of your own in your house?? shock

No wonder you freak out about touching a towel someone may have dried their hands on.

Oh and about diapers, unless they leave the diapers in the room during the meal... They have to throw it out. Ever think they washed then? And if you followed or paid that close attention.... Back to my first point.
Please get help. And don't come to my house. I have a cheerio on my floor that I didn't sweep up yet.

amother

Seashell

Fri, Oct 05 2018, 2:24 pm

amother wrote:

I apologize if I came across like that, I should have said it differently. I've seen too many things that are very unsanitary. I still say that it's basic hygiene even if a lot of you disagree.
If you're able to prove me wrong with a reputable source, please share. But, my post was really not about creating contention. It was to make people more aware of this and to ask people to give out paper towels if they're able, or individual towels, or napkins or even tissues and soap or dishwashing soap in the kitchen.