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What makes someone frum? We all practice differently
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shabbatiscoming









  


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 4:04 am
I grew up frum/religious/orthodox. I knew that to mean you keep the big 3, kashrut, shabbat and taharat hamishpacha. Everything else is gravy.
From that other thread people were saying that women who dont cover their heads are not frum. How could that be? There are so many womem who kerp all three of the above but dont cover their hair. How are they not frum.
The jewish people are all different. We all practice judaism differently. Just because one practices it differently does not mean they are not frum because of the difference.
Everyone needs to get out from their own bubble and see how many different kinds of frum jews there are. Its actually amazing.


Last edited by shabbatiscoming on Thu, Oct 04 2018, 5:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Babyblue


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 4:14 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:

Everyone needs to get out from their own bubble and see

Easier said than done. People don't wake up one day and say, ''hey, I'm in a bubble, lemme get out and see the broader world.'' They just don't. People who are in a bubble don't know they're in a bubble.

I was in a fantastic bubble, had no idea I was in one. Until life/crisis/trauma catapulted me out of it, and then I realized I'd been in a bubble all those years.
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amother




Papaya


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 4:38 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
I grew up frum/religious/orthodox. I knew that to mean you keep the big 3, kashrut, shabbat and taharat hamishpacha. Everything else is gravy.
From that other thread people were saying that women who dont cover their heads are not frum. How could that be? There are so many womem who kerp all three of the above but dont cover their hair. How are they not frum.
The jewish people are all different. We all practice judaism differently. Just because one hew practices it differently does not mean they are not frum because of the difference.
Wveryone needs yo get out from their own bubble and see how many different kinds of frum jews there are. Its actually amazing.


how could it be 'gravy' if its halacha?

if frum means devout or pious (which it does) - it has to mean more than keeping three big mitzvot.

There are plenty of people who are shomrei many mitzvot (hair coverings included) but aren't frum. They are following a lifestyle.

Be a good Jew. Forget the labels.
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shabbatiscoming









  


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 5:04 am
amother wrote:
how could it be 'gravy' if its halacha?

if frum means devout or pious (which it does) - it has to mean more than keeping three big mitzvot.

There are plenty of people who are shomrei many mitzvot (hair coverings included) but aren't frum. They are following a lifestyle.

Be a good Jew. Forget the labels.
Wow wow wow, really??? A lifestyle, really? No, its not just a life style. Its very obvious by your andwers that you live in duch a bubble, that its your way or nothing when in reality there are so many shades of gray in FRUM ORTHODOX RELIGIOUS judaism.

This respose is do completely sad to me.
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Forrealx









  


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 5:17 am
I always get a cringe when I hear: '' It's haloche''. DH did not want to keep taharash mishpacha I never did it I'm from a secular family most of my family is not jewish, but im halachic Jewish and still my mom says to me: '' you are only quarter jewish''. Which still hurts, my mom is Jewish people still see that on her and when they don't see it they call her out for ''filthy Muslim''. So I from a background where religion was evil and secular was the norm. DH's family was seen as anti-woman because we had a mechitza at the wedding (we had a mixed area though).
Why did DH not want to keep Taharat Mishpacha? Because he does not believe that he can't show affection, he loves to bring me a cup of tea or eat from my plate. I just don't want to be zxual. We tried it a few times and it just did not work for us. Hair covering, DH wants me to do it does not matter how he believes that my hair makes me beautiful and I kinda get that my non-Jewish dad hated it when my mother cut her beautiful long dark brown hair when they began dating and after 25 years he stills says it to her. But when I don't want it I don't need to do it. But his family is charedi so I have a sheital for there and for my family I do have a big hair band, hats and so on. But he is ok for me to wear trousers. We keep Shabbat, but when chas ve shalom is something wrong we won't knock on our non Jewish door to ask if they will drive us, or to call a doctor. We call our selves. This is just our private thing and our private relation to Hashem.

Frum is a very difficult term, I think when I would be in a chareidi society and live the life I have now, they won't think I'm frum. But in my society, I am normal orthodox, for my family and secular friends I'm ultra-orthodox also because DH goes to minjan and wears a keppel and we eat kosher.
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amother




Papaya


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 5:18 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Wow wow wow, really??? A lifestyle, really? No, its not just a life style. Its very obvious by your andwers that you live in duch a bubble, that its your way or nothing when in reality there are so many shades of gray in FRUM ORTHODOX RELIGIOUS judaism.

This respose is do completely sad to me.


I'm about as left wing modern orthodox as they come.

And you live in a bubble if you think that there aren't a whole whack of orthodox Jews who are living a lifestyle - with little actual piety. They come from all communities.

I don't understand FRUM ORTHODOX RELIGIOUS why do you need so many words?
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BadTichelDay









  


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 5:25 am
It's a bit like driving on the highway. Anyone who drives slower than you, is a moron. Anyone who drives faster than you, is a maniac.
Same with frum:
If they are religiously to the left of you, they are modern/frey/dati lite.
If they are to the right of you, they are religious fanatics.

The problem is that deep at heart we all feel that our own approach is the best and therefore everyone else is off-center.

My fil (ע"ה) had in my opinion the best solution to this: whenever someone would ask him if certain other people are frum or how frum they are, he'd always smile, shrug his shoulders and say "I don't know. I didn't have my frum-o-meter with me when I met them".
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Forrealx









  


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 5:37 am
Oh btw I want to add this...

So my totally secular mother with idols and astrology and tarot cards on her shelf, once met the chief rabbi. She said: 'I'm not jewish like you' 'Your mom was jewish?'' 'yea' 'your grandma?' 'yea' 'You are as jewish as I am'. That is the thing. At the end when there would be chas ve shalom another persecution every Jew from haredi mea sharim to the secular pork eating atheist is a filthy Jew.
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amother




Coral


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 5:38 am
You started an identical thread to what was locked so it probably won't be long before this is locked as well.
A frum women keeps all halacha. She doesn't pick out what's easy for her & calls herself frum. It doesn't have to do with "coming out of the bubble" or "narrow minded". A good Jewish women keeps the big 3, a frum women keeps halacha.
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Forrealx









  


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 5:49 am
amother wrote:
You started an identical thread to what was locked so it probably won't be long before this is locked as well.
A frum women keeps all halacha. She doesn't pick out what's easy for her & calls herself frum. It doesn't have to do with "coming out of the bubble" or "narrow minded". A good Jewish women keeps the big 3, a frum women keeps halacha.


The big 3? Halacha? And still a lot of Jews are speaking loshon horo, or has bad thoughts or does bad things? Seriously people need to stop that they are saints. Some people don't keep halacha or the extreme version of halacha. Who are you to decide to say someone is or is not frum? You never will know what they do behind their closed doors.
Some people are maybe not on that level that they can do anything or want to do anything fr
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BadTichelDay









  


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 5:55 am
amother wrote:
You started an identical thread to what was locked so it probably won't be long before this is locked as well.
A frum women keeps all halacha. She doesn't pick out what's easy for her & calls herself frum. It doesn't have to do with "coming out of the bubble" or "narrow minded". A good Jewish women keeps the big 3, a frum women keeps halacha.


It's not that simple. Define halacha...
Let's take just one mitzva: "hair covering".
There are psakei halacha from different orthodox (yes, orthodox!) rabbis on this.
According to some, halacha requires covering just the majority of the hair.
According to others, almost all hair has to be covered but up to a tefach may hang out.
According to others, all hair has to be covered completely.
For some, the correct cover has to be a sheitel.
For others, sheitels are forbidden and it must be a cloth covering (tichel).

Now, what's "the halacha" and who is really "frum"?
Any of these approaches relies on an orthodox Rav.

My point is, even within the frum/orthodox world, no two different communities of Jews agree on all halachot. Of course there are certain basics. But beyond that, there is a huge variety.

Frum is someone who follows halacha in the context of their community and their LOR.
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amother




Coral


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 5:57 am
Forrealx, I'm sorry but from what you described yourself you are not frum. Orthodox and frum are not the same. You can't do as you please & not keep teharas hamishpacha, which is a basic, & call yourself frum. You don't must be frum to be a nice, great, Jewish women.
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amother




Papaya


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 5:59 am
BadTichelDay wrote:
It's not that simple. Define halacha...
Let's take just one mitzva: "hair covering".
There are psakei halacha from different orthodox (yes, orthodox!) rabbis on this.
According to some, halacha requires covering just the majority of the hair.
According to others, almost all hair has to be covered but up to a tefach may hang out.
According to others, all hair has to be covered completely.
For some, the correct cover has to be a sheitel.
For others, sheitels are forbidden and it must be a cloth covering (tichel).

Now, what's "the halacha" and who is really "frum"?
Any of these approaches relies on an orthodox Rav.

My point is, even within the frum/orthodox world, no two different communities of Jews agree on all halachot. Of course there are certain basics. But beyond that, there is a huge variety.

Frum is someone who follows halacha in the context of their community and their LOR.


which of course requires the follow-up question - who is considered to be a LOR?
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Forrealx









  


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 6:00 am
BadTichelDay wrote:
It's not that simple. Define halacha...
Let's take just one mitzva: "hair covering".
There are psakei halacha from different orthodox (yes, orthodox!) rabbis on this.
According to some, halacha requires covering just the majority of the hair.
According to others, almost all hair has to be covered but up to a tefach may hang out.
According to others, all hair has to be covered completely.
For some, the correct cover has to be a sheitel.
For others, sheitels are forbidden and it must be a cloth covering (tichel).

Now, what's "the halacha" and who is really "frum"?
Any of these approaches relies on an orthodox Rav.

My point is, even within the frum/orthodox world, no two different communities of Jews agree on all halachot. Of course there are certain basics. But beyond that, there is a huge variety.

Frum is someone who follows halacha in the context of their community and their LOR.


That when I am in my MO shul, I'm one of them, I'm normal.
When I'm in a charedi community I'm not frum... When I'm in a conservative or liberal or reform community I'm charedi. Really my cousin is reform and he thinks I'm very orthodox but I'm not.
But also take something else... like using media some people don't have internet and smartphones other ones have filtered internet and smartphones some have everywhere open acces. Some only read jewish newspapers, magazines etc others also secular. Same with TV. I have open acces internet no filter, read the secular newspaper and magazine but also Binah and Mishpacha and I watch TV. Am I not frum if I do that?
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amother




Coral


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 6:01 am
Badtichelday, you're right. The halacha is to cover your hair. How you cover or how much you cover isn't halacha, it's different for every sect/community. This still doesn't make a women that doesn't cover at all "frum".
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amother




Coral


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 6:03 am
Forrealx, internet access has nothing with halacha. It doesn't define one as frum or not.
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amother




Papaya


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 6:05 am
amother Coral wrote:
Forrealx, internet access has nothing with halacha. It doesn't define one as frum or not.


Coral what defines you as frum?
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amother




Babypink


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 6:08 am
Shabbatiscoming take a deep breath. It's ok. If people who have a narrow definition of frum don't include you in their definition, but you know that you follow an orthodox Rav and serve Hashem your way to the best of your ability, then you know that you are frum, and it doesn't matter very much what they think. Don't let it get to you, let it be their problem. You are not inferior to them, you do not need their approval.

We are all Jews. We are all, everyone on the planet, created btzelrm Elokim. This is what is important.
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southernbubby









  


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 6:26 am
It probably depends on why the definition of frum is needed, such as on shidduch websites. Otherwise, we can't simply look at someone and determine their relationship with Hashem. There is a bareheaded man in Israel who goes around getting non religious shop owners to close their stores on Shabbos. The big Rebbeim have invited him for yechidus to praise and encourage his efforts. If the man were to dress chareidi, the shop owners would not listen to him.
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BadTichelDay









  


Post  Thu, Oct 04 2018, 6:35 am
The three big "w's" nobody ever can agree on:

* Who's frum?
* Who's an orthodox rabbi?
* What's the real only true one authentic Jewish dress code for men and women?
(Sub-division: will Mashiach wear a kippah, hat or shtreimel?)
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