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Defining ourselves as conservative or liberal
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 9:07 am
I think that most Americans, and probably citizens of other countries as well, are aware of the current "war" going on is social media between conservatives and liberals. It spreads to family gatherings when families can't come to any type of gathering without the "snowflakes" and the "bigots" can't get together and even discuss what type of dog to buy. I see one relative who got into too many FB arguments and who is not wanted at a funeral or a seder and most of his liberal FB friends and relatives, long ago blocked or unfriended him.

It also happens that many ideas are packaged together as being either liberal or conservative when those ideas poison the general outlook on the ideas being presented. For example the liberals defended gender neutral bathrooms while the conservatives defended Confederate statues. Personally, I don't need either of those two things but it makes me see both groups through those lenses and fail to see the merit in their other policies. It also makes it impossible to work anything out IRL.

As a frum person, I don't live a liberal life. Those "friends" that I made when I was on FB sometimes chided me for belonging to a shul that doesn't recognize or practice marriage equality. They felt that anyone who belonged to or donated money to religious organizations that didn't fully recognize and honor gay marriage, was an automatic bigot, pure and simple. I also don't see any need to aid or abet any choice, be it abortion or gay marriage, that is contrary and antithetical to my beliefs. A person's rights in a free society should include marriage to the person of their choice or bodily autonomy but those rights also enable people to ignore what the Torah states for Jews and what the 7 Noahhide commandments say to non-Jews, so why should I support them?

I also don't live a fully conservative life, if conservatism means cutting off public aid to those who really need it, giving huge tax breaks to mega corporations, punishing illegal border jumpers by snatching their children, or forcing communities to retain Confederate statues when those statues represent something dark and horrible for them. I totally support students who want to change the names of schools named after Confederate generals. I think that courthouses should be free of such statues and icons.

Then there are areas that I consider challenging because of the cost of implementing them such as universal health care and gun control. Neither of those are bad things in and of themselves; just hard to implement for many reasons, one of which being that we make political issues out of everything today.
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pesek zman









  


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 9:10 am
It sounds like you're an independent then.
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 9:22 am
pesek zman wrote:
It sounds like you're an independent then.


I guess that I would have to define myself that way although, as a voter, we have mainly a bipartisan system where others on the ballots outside of Democrats or Republicans get very few votes so I have to pick the one that most matches my needs and values.

I see that some frum Jews vote Democrat, not because they are liberals, but because the know how many frum Jews depend on public money just to live. The conservatives want to cut that off; OTOH, the conservatives are the ones who want to make public money available to yeshivas so it is somewhat of a toss-up.
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pesek zman









  


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 9:31 am
I identify as a moderate democrat. I don't believe in public funding for private (religious) schools even though it would help me because I wouldn't want public funding going to Muslim
Schools or catholic schools or conservative Christian schools. I believe in a abortion rights because I beleive access to safe healthcare is paramount and I would never want women to go back to pre Roe v Wade times where they had back alley abortions. Even though (halachically) I don't support marriage equality (in that I beleive as the Torah says, marriage is between a man and a woman) I don't beleive in restricting citizens rights to marry who they choose. I'm a hospital social worker so I also tend to try and see things as to how they will help or hurt my patients, so that gives me a unique perspective
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 9:38 am
pesek zman wrote:
I identify as a moderate democrat. I don't believe in public funding for private (religious) schools even though it would help me because I wouldn't want public funding going to Muslim
Schools or catholic schools or conservative Christian schools. I believe in a abortion rights because I beleive access to safe healthcare is paramount and I would never want women to go back to pre Roe v Wade times where they had back alley abortions. Even though (halachically) I don't support marriage equality (in that I beleive as the Torah says, marriage is between a man and a woman) I don't beleive in restricting citizens rights to marry who they choose. I'm a hospital social worker so I also tend to try and see things as to how they will help or hurt my patients, so that gives me a unique perspective


While I agree in theory that restricting freedoms hurts many people, I can let others fight the battle for freedoms that could hurt the frum community. I can definitely understand the pain of not having one's marriage recognized or of having to carry an ill-conceived baby, but I also would not want to give my fellow Jews the message that we benefit from fighting this battle because if we advocate for something and then deny it to our own people, what exactly are we saying? There are frum gays who dream of a day when their unions will be accepted and there are frum women who would like to end a pregnancy and not deal with guilt, even when both she and the baby are healthy and the abortion is halachically questionable.
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pesek zman









  


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 9:40 am
southernbubby wrote:
While I agree in theory that restricting freedoms hurts many people, I can let others fight the battle for freedoms that could hurt the frum community. I can definitely understand the pain of not having one's marriage recognized or of having to carry an ill-conceived baby, but I also would not want to give my fellow Jews the message that we benefit from fighting this battle because if we advocate for something and then deny it to our own people, what exactly are we saying? There are frum gays who dream of a day when their unions will be accepted and there are frum women who would like to end a pregnancy and not deal with guilt, even when both she and the baby are healthy and the abortion is halachically questionable.


For me it makes sense to think of it as 613 mitzvos for Jews to keep and 7 laws of Noach for the rest of the world. Gd didn't impose the same laws on be rest of the world as He did on His chosen people, and my standards for us and then are different accordingly
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Sebastian









  


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 9:44 am
I'm a conservative/libertarian/independent.

The national debt really really concerns me.
I want more free market to lower health care costs (approve drugs already approved by Canda/Europe, allow insurance across state lines etc) Yet I think a public option that ppl. can pay for (like child health plus in NY but for adults) would help also.
I don't care about abortion but I think roe vs wade is unconstitutional. I don't care if it gets overturned or not.
I don't think the US should be interfering in other countries businesses if it doesn't concern them (ex. it was wrong to unseat Ghadaffi) I'm against most foreign aid unless it benefits the US directly.
I despise Russia, N Korea and Iran. The more sanctions the merrier imo. I hate how Trump kisses up to Russia and N Korea. I'm not against a peace deal if it's not a sham, I'm not convinced any agreement they'll come to won't be a sham.
I don't like tariffs unless they're used to punish a country or to negotiate a better trade deal. I think Trump is overusing them and I would love to see Congress step in to limit his ability to do that.
I don't care about gender neutral bathrooms as long as they are completely private.
I don't care about confederate statues. I understand why ppl. may find them offensive though.
I think a baker has a right to refuse to bake a cake for a gay wedding without being punished by the government.
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 9:47 am
pesek zman wrote:
For me it makes sense to think of it as 613 mitzvos for Jews to keep and 7 laws of Noach for the rest of the world. Gd didn't impose the same laws on be rest of the world as He did on His chosen people, and my standards for us and then are different accordingly


Apparently the Noahhide laws for abortion are more stringent for non-Jews and laws regarding homozexuality are the same.
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zaq









  


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 9:52 am
I’m all for organization and tidiness, but must we separate, pigeonhole and label EVERYTHING? Why can’t a person have liberal ideas about some issues, be conservative about others, and not give a tinker’s curse about the rest? And is there ever really such a thing as an “independent thinker”? No one grows up in a vacuum and we’re all influenced at least in part if not in toto by our upbringing, community and sources of information.

I’m also not fond of the religious labels we use. Oh for the good old days when you were either shomer Shabbos or not. Period.

Labels are for pantry items, not people.
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 9:55 am
zaq wrote:
I’m all for organization and tidiness, but must we separate, pigeonhole and label EVERYTHING? Why can’t a person have liberal ideas about some issues, be conservative about others, and not give a tinker’s curse about the rest? And is there ever really such a thing as an “independent thinker”? No one grows up in a vacuum and we’re all influenced at least in part if not in toto by our upbringing, community and sources of information.

I’m also not fond of the religious labels we use. Oh for the good old days when you were either shomer Shabbos or not. Period.

Labels are for pantry items, not people.


Exactly but just try voicing the "wrong" idea, anywhere!
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Raisin









  


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 11:32 am
My take - a person starts off feeling very strongly about a certain issue. Maybe its Israel, or healthcare, or banning abortion. They start reading or listening or watching media that supports their take on this issue. They then start hearing a lot about all sorts of other issues eg gun rights, or gender neutral bathrooms and develop strong opinions on these as well.
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Raisin









  


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 11:34 am
I don't think I am either conservative or liberal - maybe more liberal then not. But there are politicians who are both also on different issues.
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Jeanette









  


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 11:38 am
southernbubby wrote:
Exactly but just try voicing the "wrong" idea, anywhere!


The question is whether I need to express my opinions about everything, everywhere. I know that around certain people it's better not to talk about certain issues. In personal relationships I try to focus on areas where we have common ground. People who are too strident in their political opinions (on either side) are annoying. Bottom line, pick your battles. Think about who you're talking to and whether there's any point in having a discussion with them.
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FranticFrummie









  


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 12:25 pm
Centrist Libertarian Independent. (I'm a Gemini, what did you expect?) LOL

I'm not a single issue voter, unless it comes to the security of the State of Israel. I support gay rights, but if a gay hating politician will protect Israel, I'm going to suck it up and go with Israel. Same with any other hot button issue. Israel is always first in my book.

Yes, I know we're talking about American politics, but I'm an Israeli American. We all have our pet issues.
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Fox









  


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 12:34 pm
One of the problems, I believe, is that the labels "liberal" and "conservative" are becoming less and less useful in telling us anything about what someone believes.

I think it's useful to look at some of the common attitudes expressed at the TPUSA high school conference this past summer. This conference represents some of the most conservative high school kids and those who would be likely to eventually ascend into conservative leadership roles:

* Strongly supportive of individually-practiced and religious faith when combined with tolerance for other religions.
* Strongly supportive of LGBT rights, including gay marriage, with several prominent LGBT speakers featured.
* Anti-abortion but also uninterested in pro-life agitation or anti-abortion legislation.
* Highly inclusive of racial minorities and notably supportive of bi-racial and bi-cultural identities.
* Highly supportive of 2nd Amendment rights.
* Highly inclusive of women, with prominent women speakers highlighting the conference.
* Moderate economically -- not free market absolutists nor proponents of government intervention.
* Highly critical of social medial and mainstream media in stifling free speech.
* Suspicious of overseas military intervention.

In fact, if we look at the most conservative kids in 2018, they look an awful lot like the typical liberal kids of 1965. Minus the bell bottom jeans and love beads.

So if conservative kids today believe many of the things liberal kids believed 50 years ago, what do liberals believe?

The heck if I know. I can't figure it out. And I think that's one of the big problems for liberals and the Democratic Party.

Another bellwether, I believe, are the #WalkAway videos -- the testimonies of former liberals/Democrats denouncing what they've come to believe is left-wing extremism.

Most of them, of course, are relatively predictable, though some are more moving or interesting than others. What has stunned me, though, are the number of Bernie Sanders voters who are now denouncing the Democrats and/or the left.

Their reasoning in voting for Sanders was not, it seems, an affinity for socialism. Rather, it was a desire to overturn what the believed was an entrenched political bureaucracy -- a "Deep State." So they are aligning themselves with Trump without a second thought. Before the usual suspects claim that I'm saying every single Bernie Sanders supporter has converted to a Trump supporter, let me be clear that I am not saying that. I am simply pointing out a pattern that was surprising to me and further demonstrates how inadequate our concepts of "liberal" and "conservative" have become.

Which brings us to the final problem: many of the arguments SouthernBubby references are really arguments about Trump. And, Trump is not a conservative. In fact, that was one of the establishment Republicans' main problems with him. Not only is Trump not a conservative, he and his supporters are increasingly effective in co-opting liberal stands and rebranding them as Republican ideals.


Last edited by Fox on Wed, Oct 10 2018, 12:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Powderblue


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 12:35 pm
Well I’m sure that no matter where we stand on the political spectrum, we’re all thrilled (sarcasm alert) to know that as of this week, NYS law allows you to change your birth certificate to show your gender as X. Infants must still be identified as male or female.

Will we soon have shadchanim specializing in X clients?
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Sebastian









  


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 12:38 pm
amother I don't care if ppl. can identify as X.
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 12:41 pm
FranticFrummie wrote:
Centrist Libertarian Independent. (I'm a Gemini, what did you expect?) LOL

I'm not a single issue voter, unless it comes to the security of the State of Israel. I support gay rights, but if a gay hating politician will protect Israel, I'm going to suck it up and go with Israel. Same with any other hot button issue. Israel is always first in my book.

Yes, I know we're talking about American politics, but I'm an Israeli American. We all have our pet issues.


100% that Israel should be our first priority!
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 12:44 pm
amother wrote:
Well I’m sure that no matter where we stand on the political spectrum, we’re all thrilled (sarcasm alert) to know that as of this week, NYS law allows you to change your birth certificate to show your gender as X. Infants must still be identified as male or female.

Will we soon have shadchanim specializing in X clients?



Just imagine the lawsuits chas v'sholem, against shadchanim who will only set up men with women.
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southernbubby









  


Post  Wed, Oct 10 2018, 12:58 pm
Sebastian wrote:
amother I don't care if ppl. can identify as X.




It certainly doesn't impact my life. I think people make too big of a deal over it.
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