Defining ourselves as conservative or liberal

southernbubby

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:17 pm

marina wrote:

Gender is what your society expects of you based on your biology. Women like to cook and sew and be nurturing and gentle. Men like football and fixing things and being silent and macho.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....ction

Society expects it because that is what the biology creates. I expect a dog to bark and wag it's tail because he was created to do that.

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:22 pm

southernbubby wrote:

The first gender reassignment surgery was done on Christine Jorgenson over 60 years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....ensen

So the concept was definitely around 60 years ago.

And he did "sx" reassignment surgery, not gender reassignment surgery, if I am understanding marina correctly.

And for the two to four thousand years before that, what did people do if they felt that they woke up the wrong gender?

You know, my dh walked into work yesterday and said "I now identify as a black". His friends said - "you can't!" He answered "why can't I? If someone who was born a male can identify as a female, why can't I identify as a black?" It's much easier to change your ethnic identity than change your sx - right? I mean, there are plenty of blacks who are pretty light skinned, and my dh happens to be dark. So really, why not? Why is it ok to change your gender but not your ethnic identity?

I'll go a step further, let's say I was born in Ireland, and I'm Irish. But I don't like Irish culture, I don't identify with Irish culture, I would really like to be Scottish. Can I change my ethnicity to Scottish? Why not?

Anyways, gotta get back to real life. Have fun!

Jeanette

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:30 pm

amother wrote:

My point is that there is there are a lot of things that are permissible generally, that are not permissible to Jews.

I understood your point more generally to be that while I personally teach my kids not to eat bacon I can still function in a society where bacon is available and dont feel the need to prevent others from accessing bacon.

I wonder how that applies in Israel though. I think there may have been laws against raising pigs or selling it in stores.

southernbubby

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:30 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Whatever type of surgery that it was made this man into a pseudo-woman so whether we call it sx reassignment or gender reassignment doesn't change the fact that Christine was castrated to become "female".

As far as changing race and culture, lots of non-Muslims became Muslim and embraced that culture. Race can't change but culture can and to an extent, possibly gender. The transgender person probably won't be typical of the gender that they are becoming.

I am not sure what people did 4000 years ago but the Torah mentions homozexuality and there were also males who were castrated for various reasons so more than likely, society changed but some of these variations always existed in one form or another.

dancingqueen

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:37 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

In 2018? Really???!!!!

Wow, I'd like to introduce you to some men that you may not have yet met. My grandfather was an expert sewer (as are many tailors, BTW), he also liked to cook (as do plenty of male chefs). We lived in the same house and he cooked us breakfast every morning. He was also gentle and nurturing. Yet he managed to get married, go to shul, and do all the other stuff that men in our society generally do. My husband doesn't stop talking for a second, I'm the quiet one in the Mommyg8 home. My husband hates sports. He's not particularly macho either. Does that mean that we have our genders mixed up?

So it sounds like you agree that gender is a construct. As you are basically saying, while relations organs are biological, the traits we associate with each relations may be cultural, stereotyped, and do not apply to all the people who share the same relations.

amother

Beige

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:38 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

So the concept was definitely around 60 years ago.

By googling:

1503 BC HatshepsutIn Egypt, Queen Hatshepsut ascended to the throne, second Egyptian queen to rule after Sobekneferu of the 12Th Dynasty). She had donned male apparel and reigned until 1482 BC.Her daugther Neferure, also downed male apparel but did not live to be an adult.
After the death of Hatshepsut, her second husband attempted to erase all records of her and ruled as King Angola until 1653, he cross-dressed and led several successful military battles against the Portuguese.

During 900 CE, John Anglicus was allegedly elected pope of the Roman Catholic Church. However, according to the story, he was Joan, a woman and gave birth in Rome. The church has no record of this.

1654 Queen Christina of Sweden gives up the throne and takes on a male name, “Count Dohna.”

Hirschfeld reported in “Sexuelle Zwischenstufen: Sexualpathologie” that the first incomplete relations-reassignment surgeries in female-to-male patients were performed in Berlin in 1912.

The fact is, that for time immemorial, men have plucked their eyebrows on the way, shaved their legs, and then he was a she.

But I still don't understand why anyone cares.

Person: Where's the restroom?
Other Person: Down the stairs, to the right.

Why do we need to know the state of the person's original or modified equipment? Why does anyone care?

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:42 pm

Jeanette wrote:

Quote:

The strongest woman is barely as strong as the weakest male - look it up, it's a fact.

Can you give your source for this "fact"?

Are you saying, for example, that an 89-year old male in a wheelchair is just barely as strong as a top female athlete?

There were studies done that compared men's physical strength to women. Those studies are most relevant to the military, police department, and fire fighters. I don't have time to list the study now, but try googling firefighters and fitness tests.

According to a random article I just found while doing a quick google search, referenced below:

https://nypost.com/2015/05/03/.....test/

"Only 44 of the FDNY’s 10,500 firefighters are female"

This is because they cannot pass a basic fitness test which requires them to complete a course in 17 minutes, 50 seconds or less. This article was discussing a challenge by Rebecca Wax, who although being in top physical condition, and despite many attempts, was not able to get her timing to less than 22 minutes.

Of course, this article is discussing firefighters, who are generally strong people. The statistic I quoted is from a different article, which I need time to find.

Your comparison is silly. So let's change it - the strongest possible 22 female will be barely as strong as a 22 year old male who is on the bottom of the chart in terms of strength. Possibly not even as strong - but I do have to look it up.

The point is that males are generally much stronger than females, even weak males are stronger than strong females.

Fox

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:47 pm

Here's what I find somewhat confusing about contemporary transgenderism, for lack of a better word.

One of the side goals of the feminist movement in the 60s/70s was to liberate people from the excessive rigidity of gender roles. Whether you believed that "girl stuff" and "boy stuff" was completely based on social conditioning, had some biological basis, or a little of both, the conventional wisdom was that many people had interests, talents, or characteristics that didn't conform to their gender/s-x -- and that was okay.

In other words, boys should be able to sew and girls should be able to play football if it suited them -- without being considered less masculine or feminine. In fact, there was a lot of emphasis on the fact that most people had interests associated with both genders: remember Rosey Grier, the professional football player who was also known for promoting his needlepoint hobby?

But when I read or watch videos of individuals who identify as transgender, many of them seem to simply be saying that they feel they have more interests and characteristics of the opposite gender.

It makes me wonder if we are actually taking a step backward by reverting to such rigid stereotypical gender roles. Being a girl who wants to play football, hates long hair and girly grooming affections, and isn't interested in cooking or needlepoint doesn't make you a boy. It makes you a girl who wants to play football, etc.

Last edited by Fox on Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:48 pm

amother wrote:

Re the bolded - we agree on one thing at least!!!

But marina is arguing that gender is not related to original or modified equipment. That someone can stay with their original equipment and still identify as the opposite gender. How does that make sense?

Your examples are not really related to the issue at hand. Many females pretended to be males throughout history, which does not mean that they "identified" as males, rather that for political or economic reasons they felt it prudent to be thought of as males by general society, especially when the general society of the time very strongly favored males over females.

And cross dressing has been around from time immemorial, and not really related to gender identity.

southernbubby

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:49 pm

amother wrote:

We don't get personally involved with the other people using public restrooms. I do, however, understand the skittishness regarding locker rooms where people are dressing and undressing in the open or showering in view of other people. I personally wouldn't want mixed locker rooms. I don't think that it is unreasonable to ask someone with opposite genitalia to use a private locker room.

amother

Green

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:54 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

of course your husband can identify as black. what does that mean to your husband? does he think he'll have more rights?

amother

Beige

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:55 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

The point is that males are generally much stronger than females, even weak males are stronger than strong females.

That's just plain untrue.

So I randomly picked the daughter of my childhood neighbors as a reference point because, well, I know her.

She can squat 352 pounds. Bench press 253. Deadlift 330. (And yes, she lifts for her college team.)

Let me know what your husband can lift.

In general, males are stronger the females. But there is a huge overlap, and a great many women are stronger than a great many men.

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:56 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Gender is often a construct of society. Which is why different societies have different expectations of males and females.

I just read Fox's post above, and she explained much more clearly than I have could what I was trying to say.

Society in the Western world has been strongly changing the way we perceive gender roles. I'm not really sure when this started (perhaps the 20's?), but this has certainly been happening even before my lifetime.

Today's young generation - which I presume you are one of - was born into this world thinking that gender is just an anatomical difference without any real difference in any other things that men and women can achieve. Which is why I'm finding this whole topic so strange.

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:57 pm

amother wrote:

of course your husband can identify as black. what does that mean to your husband? does he think he'll have more rights?

Does he think? You have chosen to be amother, so I have no idea what your background is. My husband is a government employee, an affirmative action in government agencies is the law of the land. Does that answer your question?

In any case, why do women want to be men, and men women? Do they think they will have more rights? Not sure about your question.

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 2:00 pm

amother wrote:

If my husband were to invest in the same training as this girl you are referencing, then yes, he would surpass her. And my husband is not particularly strong.

And science has shown that there is actually NOT a huge overlap, contrary to popular expectations.

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 2:05 pm

amother wrote:

My point is that there is there are a lot of things that are permissible generally, that are not permissible to Jews.

Ok, so I thought that this was a political thread, I was not aware that we were talking about frum people. Obviously, anything even related to changing gender, and even cross-dressing, is completely assur. This is not something that is up for discussion, so I did not realize we were discussing it.

I am concerned about what general society does and thinks because, well, I live in general society. Like it or not, we are affected by what is going on around us.

Like I said earlier, I am not against a non-Jewish person doing transgender surgery after appropriate psychological counseling. I think they would be making a mistake (which I can explain via pm if you are interested) but I am not against it.

What I am against is the idea that children should be given a choice to choose their gender identity. Besides for being extremely destructive to the world around us (a world which I happen to live in), I am afraid that this will filter down into our world as well.

Jeanette

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 2:17 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Your source does not say what you claim it says.

Even controlling for age and size the weakest male is nowhere near as strong as the strongest female.

Dont assert things as fact if they're not.