Defining ourselves as conservative or liberal

leah233

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 10:30 am

I consider myself to be independent but I almost always vote for the most conservative candidate.

As a teenager things like the Crown Heights pogrom, LA riots and spiraling crime in general under liberal administrations gave me a permanent aversion to liberalism. As time went on and the liberals started becoming more and more hostile to my values the aversion intensified.

But I remain an independent. Just because I cannot vote for a specific party doesn't make me automatically agree with their opponents on everything.

amother

Salmon

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 10:49 am

This thread is wonderful. I am really enjoying the thoughtful answers. It is fascinating to read the varied perspectives of women who share similar cultural backgrounds.
I live in the US now, but where I come from, all of the political parties are more leftist than the Democratic Party! Seriously, the most right-wing party in my native country is more liberal on many issues than the Democrats. Consequently, I am an independent in the US and simply vote for local candidates that will support my community. On an ideological level, I do not identify with either of the two (!) parties.

sushilover

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 11:11 am

marina wrote:

What I want is for you not to present the Walk Away movement as a completely legitimate group, free and clear of all controversy, when it is so sketchy and you are surely aware of that.

Kylie Jenner is a red herring here because those make up products do not affect our elections so I don't care who uses and doesn't use them. Your attempt to include Kylie here is a way to minimize my point (same for nibbling language) and I am calling you out on that dismissiveness.

Will you do the same for Black Lives Matter?

https://www.theguardian.com/wo.....ivist Blackticist account was run by Russhian operative
Russian Trolls were obsessed with BLM
The largest facebook page for BLM was run by a white man in Australia.
Russian operatives ran social media pages and even organized BLM protests and rallies!

Is BLM not a legitimate group because there were some sketchy people involved?

southernbubby

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 11:15 am

sushilover wrote:

Oh, and one more thing. I believe the media is undeniably biased against conservatives and journalists have abdicated their roles in favor of liberal activism. This is a loss for our country.

This is what is so frustrating because there is no one "truth" in the media and no unbiased reporting. Every media outlet is slanted toward a particular outlook and it is hard to simply find the facts.

Even subjects, such as climate change, which should be a matter of simple scientific research and understanding, is viewed in different ways by each political faction. Regardless of whether or not we agree with abortion rights, gay rights, immigrant rights, etc., the climate affects everybody so we have a choice of accepting bad weather as Hashem's will or trying to curb it.

I also see lots of talk and very little action. If we really want a more inclusive and integrated society, we have to include and integrate but I don't see that happening even in liberal circles.

marina

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 11:31 am

sushilover wrote:

Yes, the legitimacy of a group decreases after it is co-opted by Russian operatives. I would want to know whether there's any valid way of distinguishing btw Blacktivist type accounts and the legitimate ones who represent the BLM movement. If not, that's too bad for BLM.

southernbubby

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 11:46 am

leah233 wrote:

Liberals can't even figure out whether someone is a man or a lady. Do you think they have ability to discern truth? Let alone report it.

I only know a couple of transgenders and one of them is open Orthodox, the other is a teenager with very liberal Jewish parents. Since it is not known what causes gender dysphoria, I would imagine that there are people who experience it who are not liberal but societal confusion about gender could be a component.

I have a cousin who is a psychologist for the VA and her practice is for transgender veterans, many of whom are elderly so their issues may have stemmed from something other than societal gender confusion. (The cousin, BTW, is a cis-gender wife and mother).

There are a couple of stories out there of transgenders who grew up Chassidishe so more than likely, liberalism was not an initial cause.

amother

Beige

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 11:48 am

leah233 wrote:

Liberals can't even figure out whether someone is a man or a lady. Do you think they have ability to discern truth? Let alone report it.

The Talmud describes 6 "genders":

Zachar: Th is term is derived from the word for a pointy sword and refers to a phallus. It is
usually translated as “male” in English.

Nekevah: Th is term is derived from the word for a crevice and probably refers to a vaginal
opening. It is usually translated as “female” in English.

Androgynos: A person who has both “male” and “female” s-xual characteristics. 149 references in Mishna and Talmud (1st-8th Centuries CE); 350 in classical midrash and Jewish law codes (2nd -16th Centuries CE).

Tumtum: A person whose s-xual characteristics are indeterminate or obscured. 181 references in Mishna and Talmud; 335 in classical midrash and Jewish law codes.

Ay’lonit: A person who is identified as “female” at birth but develops “male” characteristics
at puberty and is infertile. 80 references in Mishna and Talmud; 40 in classical midrash and
Jewish law codes.

Saris: A person who is identified as “male” at birth but develops “female” characteristics as
puberty and/or is lacking a aiver. A saris can be “naturally” a saris (saris hamah), or become
one through human intervention (saris adam). 156 references in mishna and Talmud; 379 in
classical midrash and Jewish law codes.

Darned Jews can't figure out whether someone is a man or a lady. Do you think they have the ability to discern the truth?

What I don't get is why conservatives are so darned obsessed with other people's genitals.

amother

Green

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 11:48 am

southernbubby wrote:

read reuters.

leah233

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 11:54 am

southernbubby wrote:

There are a couple of stories out there of transgenders who grew up Chassidishe so more than likely, liberalism was not an initial cause.

I guarantee you that transgenders who grew up Chassidishe consider themselves to be liberal.

Anyway I wasn't referring to transgenders. I was referring to people who think that gender is a matter of choice and preference with no connection to physical reality.

Similar to thinking that if a cat acts like a dog it is now either a actual dog or animal X becuase it's no longer a cat.

marina

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 12:03 pm

Fox wrote:

Now we've shifted our focus to "extreme conservatism," I see.
...

Precisely who are all these mainstream conservative voices whose response to racial disparity is "OH VICTIM CULTURE, PUT YOUR BIG BOY PANTS ON AND GO GET A JOB"? And please don't post memes from right-wing nut-jobs.

On this page here, you explain that you don't believe women experience systemic discrimination or institutionalized misogyny. https://www.imamother.com/foru.....07933

On this page, you explain that any systemic discrimination against AAs can be blamed on progressives. Other participants, like Sushilover, explain that there is no institutionalized racism at all.
https://www.imamother.com/foru.....40099

So I dk. Are you and sushilover examples of mainstream conservative voices ? Do you really expect me to take seriously your insistence that all institutionalized racism is caused by liberal policies?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....tates

leah233

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 12:04 pm

amother wrote:

This is baloney. There are basically two genders.

A tuntum and androgynous are a question as to which one they belong or possibly a third gender due to their unique physical reality.

Aylonis and saris remain male or female.

Their unique physical characteristics create question in halacha.

The tone of your comment indicate you believe what you want to believe and indeed don't care about reality. (Because conservatives define gender based on physical reality makes them obsessed with other peoples genitals? Huh? In fact I dislike this topic so much that this is my last post for this thread )

Last edited by leah233 on Thu, Oct 11 2018, 12:17 pm; edited 3 times in total

southernbubby

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 12:08 pm

leah233 wrote:

The Chassidishe transgender people embraced liberalism after experiencing the gender dysphoria. It appeared that they lived typical Chassidishe lives prior to that.

I have not heard of anyone considering gender a matter of choice but rather manifestations of gender are a matter of choice. This would include things such as unizex clothing or toys or not viewing career choices as belonging to one gender or another or allowing men to wear jewelry, etc. I think that is also an idea of the extreme rather than mainstream left.

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 12:11 pm

amother wrote:

The Talmud is talking about actual physical features, not gender identity. So your post makes no sense.

marina

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 12:14 pm

sushilover wrote:

I agree with you 100 percent. I don't think that gender is an artificial construct, but that's the beauty of America, you can think so, and we can still live in the same country.

The problem arises when the government gets involved and compels me to be involved in someone's gender change ceremony, compels stores to allow males to enter female bathrooms, compels teachers to teach that gender is a social construct, compels me to say certain things, or compels me to support my minor child's gender change.

America is not there YET for most of the examples above, thank G-d. But can we agree now that this is not the place for government's involvement?

It's pretty well accepted that gender is an artificial construct. It's a distinction people made up for reproductive purposes. We could have made up some name to distinguish between hairy and non hairy people or people who can wiggle their ears and those who can't. But we didn't because those distinctions aren't that important to us.

You can argue as to whether gender is an important construct or whether people should be able to change their identification, but it's pretty much agreed that it is an artificial construct.

southernbubby

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 12:29 pm

marina wrote:

Could it be a combination of social construct and hormones that are secreted from early in childhood? It seems like boys act like boys and girls act like girls from a very early age. It may be a combination of societal expectations; that boys are rough and tumble and girls are more gentle but it may be intrinsic to the physical development of each gender.

It may be too, that atypical development of males and females that results in atypical zexual behavior such as gender dysphoria or homozexual behavior, is the result of inadequate hormone levels as the child develops. We can usually tell that someone is gay and we know now that this is not a choice but an inborn trait, so the cause is probably something physical as well as psycho-social.

amother

Periwinkle

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 12:36 pm

marina wrote:
It's pretty well accepted that gender is an artificial construct. It's a distinction people made up for reproductive purposes. We could have made up some name to distinguish between hairy and non hairy people or people who can wiggle their ears and those who can't.

Pretty well accepted? By who?

I consider that absolute blind nonsense.

I'm a registered Democrat btw.

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 12:43 pm

marina wrote:

Marina, you're a smart person. How does this even make sense? Hairy and non-hairy are specific physical characteristics. As much as I would like to change my physical characteristics, I can't. So even your example doesn't work in this case.

Gender seems to me to be a made up word which means absolutely nothing.

In our society today, what exactly is the difference between a male and a female? (I'm not talking about frum society where men have different mitzvos than women). There is no actual difference that I can see except physical characteristics. Women can give birth, men can't. Women have female genitalia, men have male genitalia. Men and women secret different hormones. They react differently, generally, to medications. Men are by far stronger than women, physically. The strongest woman is barely as strong as the weakest male - look it up, it's a fact.

You can pretend to try to change physical characteristics, by surgery and/or chemical surgery, the same way that if I am hairy I can undergo electrolysis.

So what does "gender" actually mean? It means absolutely nothing.