Defining ourselves as conservative or liberal

marina

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 12:48 pm

amother wrote:

marina wrote:
It's pretty well accepted that gender is an artificial construct. It's a distinction people made up for reproductive purposes. We could have made up some name to distinguish between hairy and non hairy people or people who can wiggle their ears and those who can't.

Pretty well accepted? By who?

I consider that absolute blind nonsense.

I'm a registered Democrat btw.

Maybe I'm not expressing myself well. People made up words like male and female to distinguish between certain groups and that process is artificial as opposed to 5ex differences, which of course are biological. I don't think it matters what political group you belong to Smile

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 12:50 pm

southernbubby wrote:

I only know a couple of transgenders and one of them is open Orthodox, the other is a teenager with very liberal Jewish parents. Since it is not known what causes gender dysphoria, I would imagine that there are people who experience it who are not liberal but societal confusion about gender could be a component.

I have a cousin who is a psychologist for the VA and her practice is for transgender veterans, many of whom are elderly so their issues may have stemmed from something other than societal gender confusion. (The cousin, BTW, is a cis-gender wife and mother).

There are a couple of stories out there of transgenders who grew up Chassidishe so more than likely, liberalism was not an initial cause.

Even elderly people can be manipulated by society and the media. And there are plenty of Chassidish liberals.

My issue is not so much with adults who decide they are transgender - if they want to mess up their lives, it's their choice. My issue is more with teaching children that gender is a fluid concept and they can choose. Children are very impressionable, and they are also very changeable.

Most of you here on imamother are mothers. Would you truly allow your five year old to declare a different gender than what he/she was born? Would you really allow a pre-puberty child to start the chemical cocktails and/or surgery that such a decision entails? Really? If you would, I would like to hear from you.

sequoia

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 12:52 pm

In America, I do not define myself as anything except *exhausted* by the endless news cycle, the drama du jour, the name-calling, the insistence we align ourselves with one of TWO parties (heaven forbid there should be more), and of course being called upon to have an opinion on every single issue, including ones I am totally ignorant about.

In Israel or Ukraine I think the arrangement is more sensible and I would vote if I lived in either of those countries.

marina

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 12:54 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Marina, you're a smart person. How does this even make sense? Hairy and non-hairy are specific physical characteristics. As much as I would like to change my physical characteristics, I can't. So even your example doesn't work in this case.

Gender seems to me to be a made up word which means absolutely nothing.

In our society today, what exactly is the difference between a male and a female? (I'm not talking about frum society where men have different mitzvos than women). There is no actual difference that I can see except physical characteristics. Women can give birth, men can't. Women have female genitalia, men have male genitalia. Men and women secret different hormones. They react differently, generally, to medications. Men are by far stronger than women, physically. The strongest woman is barely as strong as the weakest male - look it up, it's a fact.

You can pretend to try to change physical characteristics, by surgery and/or chemical surgery, the same way that if I am hairy I can undergo electrolysis.

So what does "gender" actually mean? It means absolutely nothing.

Hairy and nonhairy people are not distinguished in our society. We don't call some people "Gluffies" and others "Moffs" based on hairiness. Maybe they do in other cultures. We do call people male and female based on if they have or don't have certain genitals. So we- as a society - have chosen to ignore some differences between people and assign importance to other differences. Because those differences are critical for reproduction.

southernbubby

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 12:55 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I am not a fan of doing anything to children since this gender dysphoria or confusion could be outgrown. There are cases where the child wanted to be the opposite gender due a perceived superiority of the other gender and it took awhile to ferret out this from the child.

The elderly people in question had apparently considered themselves to be transgender before it became "fashionable".

amother

Green

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 12:55 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I wouldn't let my kid eat bacon. Yet its available in the supermarket.

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 12:57 pm

marina wrote:

Ok, so can you list some differences between males and females in today's society? I'm having difficulty coming up with even one difference that is not based on biology.

marina

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 12:57 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

If my child was born intersex and I assigned male to them, but later they decided they were female, I would definitely support that decision. Because my decision was arbitrary. And of course I wouldn't tell my family about the intersex piece, so they'd never even know that.

And if my child was not born intersex, but had mental health problems because of their gender dysphoria and was suicidal, you bet I would allow the reassignment.

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 12:59 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Can you explain this more clearly? In what way did they consider themselves transgender? How long ago did they become transgender?

Even 50 years ago, the concept did not exist. So I'm wondering when this began? And how they came up with this? Can you explain?

marina

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:01 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Ok, so can you list some differences between males and females in today's society? I'm having difficulty coming up with even one difference that is not based on biology.

There are of course differences in roles, but that's not what I'm talking about. Hairy and non hairy people are also biologically different. We just haven't made that distinction as a society - we can, of course, call them Gloop and Moop or whatever and then it will be another artificial construct.

Forget it- it's not important. it's just semantics really. But gender is definitely an artificial construct. Actual 5ex differences are biological.

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:01 pm

marina wrote:

So now you are no longer talking about gender, but about sx? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Again, I'm trying to understand - what does "gender" actually mean? Can you list the differences between the female gender and the male gender?

marina

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:06 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Gender is what your society expects of you based on your biology. Women like to cook and sew and be nurturing and gentle. Men like football and fixing things and being silent and macho.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....ction

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:06 pm

amother wrote:

I wouldn't let my kid eat bacon. Yet its available in the supermarket.

Can you explain your comment more clearly? I'm not understanding your point, but I'll acknowledge that there might be a deep hidden meaning to your post that I'm not getting.

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:09 pm

marina wrote:

In 2018? Really???!!!!

Wow, I'd like to introduce you to some men that you may not have yet met. My grandfather was an expert sewer (as are many tailors, BTW), he also liked to cook (as do plenty of male chefs). We lived in the same house and he cooked us breakfast every morning. He was also gentle and nurturing. Yet he managed to get married, go to shul, and do all the other stuff that men in our society generally do. My husband doesn't stop talking for a second, I'm the quiet one in the Mommyg8 home. My husband hates sports. He's not particularly macho either. Does that mean that we have our genders mixed up?

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Salmon

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:09 pm

amother wrote:

I wouldn't let my kid eat bacon. Yet its available in the supermarket.

This. I've rented the apartment above mine to tenants that included a lesbian couple, a person who identified as gender fluid and a group of friends who identified as queer. To my children, they were simply individuals who were part of the colorful human mosaic in our neighborhood.

Fox

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:09 pm

Read again what I actually said -- not what you wish I'd said:

marina wrote:

On this page here, you explain that you don't believe women experience systemic discrimination or institutionalized misogyny. https://www.imamother.com/foru.....07933

Fox wrote:

Absolutely correct. I can't think of a single problem facing women in the U.S. today that is the result of "marginalization." That's not to say that women as a class don't face problems -- but those problems aren't the result of systemic discrimination or persecution.

Some of the problems you mention have legal or medical remedies. At least one -- women dropping out of male-dominated fields because of harassment -- may not exist at all. Reforming cultures where women are not valued is a laudable goal, but if that's the goal, a more powerful statement would involve extreme vetting of immigrants to ensure that they will not contribute to or support the subjugation of women. Whoops! That's not so popular!

Let's reimagine the Women's March: What if half a million women showed up in Washington to demand that President Trump pressure and/or place sanctions on countries that . . .

* Do not prosecute honor killings;
* Do not allow women to vote;
* Do not permit freedom of movement for women;
* Permit gender-based abortion;
* Deny women the right to earn a living;
* Permit or overlook s-x trafficking
* Deny women educational opportunities

I'd be there marching in a pink hat, myself. Okay, I probably wouldn't march, but I'd for sure get one of those cute pink hats. There are plenty of women in the world who are marginalized, but the various Women's Marches appeared to me to be the epitome of first-world problems. And however legitimate, none of those could be solved by a march.

Correct. I feel that women who are not victims of bad things are not victims. Women who are victims of bad things are victims. In some places, being a woman almost guarantees that you will be victim of bad things. The U.S. is not one of those places, BH.

Oh, and the women who are victims are not to blame. The women who are not victims but like to pretend to be victims should shut up and count their blessings.

marina wrote:

On this page, you explain that any systemic discrimination against AAs can be blamed on progressives. Other participants, like Sushilover, explain that there is no institutionalized racism at all.
https://www.imamother.com/foru.....40099

Fox wrote:

Yet I believe that racism is a significant problem.

I believe that white privilege exists.

I believe that black Americans are justifiably angry.

Most of all, I believe that 60 years of progressive policy has kept a percentage of African-Americans in a state of indentured servitude.

I believe that progressives have thrown African-Americans under the bus whenever their interests conflicted with another progressive interest, such as teachers' unions, school choice, or the role of churches in civil life.

I believe that progressives have resolved those conflicts of interest by throwing money at the African-American community -- money that is quickly gobbled up by consultants, contractors, and anyone else with the savvy to stick his snout in the trough. No interest whatsoever in what works; just take some money and shut up.

Where do I say that racism doesn't exist? Where do I say to "just go get a job"? It's pretty clear that I'm not denying the existence or intractable nature of racism -- I'm saying that many of the solutions offered by progressives over the past 50-60 years have not been effective.

marina wrote:

So I dk. Are you and sushilover examples of mainstream conservative voices ? Do you really expect me to take seriously your insistence that all institutionalized racism is caused by liberal policies?

No, I expect you to take seriously my insistence and more importantly, the insistence of African-American conservatives, that much of the current racial disparity -- to distinguish it from actual racism -- has been, at best, unimproved by liberal policies, and at worst, exacerbated by liberal policies.

Yes, progressives were crucial in passing legislation and regulation that prevented discrimination in housing, consumer affairs, etc. I've written extensively about the importance of those liberal ideals during the 50s and 60s. But the left seems to think that they can rest on those laurels forever, as if to say, "Hey, we kept those racists from redlining neighborhoods back in the 70s, so don't ask for anything more than we're willing to give you!"

The fact is that Marcus Garvey had it right, or at least part of it right: the best way at this point to mitigate the lingering effects of racism is to promote the creation of wealth in minority communities. Wealth brings freedom and choice. My first boss out of college, James H. Lowry, used to say, "Nothing gets people over racism faster than wanting to do business with you."

marina

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:12 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

It means the men around you do not identify with traditional gender roles. That's not a bad thing.

I think you are confused because I've not expressed myself well, but I don't really have time to fix it. Sorry. Just carry on.

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:13 pm

amother wrote:

Ok, so you simply didn't understand what I said.

They are teaching today's kids, in class, that gender is a fluid concept. So they tell the children that you can identify as male and female, whichever you wish.

And parents are often going along with this. It would be ok if it was just a word, I can call myself a ballerina and nobody minds, but when you start giving pre-adelescent (I can't think of the other word) children shots to make them physically into the other gender, you are messing up with their entire future lives. I can't think of a better way to completely and totally destroy a person's life.

marina

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:14 pm

Fox, I think our conversations will go better if we establish what we agree on first.

southernbubby

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:15 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

The first gender reassignment surgery was done on Christine Jorgenson over 60 years ago:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....ensen