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S/o what makes people convert from judaism to other religion
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mommyof6




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2018, 7:28 pm
Leah 233. The conversions in Spain during the 1400 was due to the Spanish inquisition. That's a very different scenario. And, many Jews still continued to practice Judaism is secret. They are the Morranos. These Jews were not looking for love, acceptance, they just wanted to stay alive.

There are historians that believe that Christopher Columbus was one such Morrano.
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2018, 7:34 pm
mommyof6 wrote:
Leah 233. The conversions in Spain during the 1400 was due to the Spanish inquisition. That's a very different scenario. And, many Jews still continued to practice Judaism is secret. They are the Morranos. These Jews were not looking for love, acceptance, they just wanted to stay alive.

There are historians that believe that Christopher Columbus was one such Morrano.


The Spanish inquisition targeting Jews started in 1492.

The period before that had a mass voluntary conversion to Catholicism.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2018, 7:43 pm
leah233 wrote:
The Spanish inquisition targeting Jews started in 1492.

The period before that had a mass voluntary conversion to Catholicism.


The mass conversions started in the late 1300's, but that was in response to pogroms.

Many did convert completely, though, and did not practice Judaism even in secret. And many converted even though their lives were not in danger.
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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2018, 7:45 pm
leah233 wrote:
The inquisition started in 1492.

The period before that had a mass voluntary conversion to Catholicism.


No. In certain regions of Spain, (I believe Toledo but I can be wrong) in 1392, there were mobs forcing conversion or murdering.
When the mob died down and the danger passed, the cardinals and priests kept these new "conversos" and their families under very strict supervision to keep them away from the Jews living in the same cities.
The inquisition (established not just for the Jews but to control all the Spanish in the "straight and narrow") persecuted any new conversos who showed signs of straying from Catholicism.
In 1492, the Jews were expelled. These conversos were not expelled because they were considered catholics by the government.
That's not exactly voluntary conversion.
That's convert or die, convert or be expelled, convert or lose all your money. Not commenting on the validity of their choices. Just saying not voluntary.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2018, 7:50 pm
quote;
Then there is the “getting back at parents-teachers-other religious authority figures—and maybe even G-d as viewed through the lens of Yiddishkeit”— angle. You could do drugs, sleep around, and steal cars, but why risk addiction, STDs and jail when you can deliver the ultimate slap in the face to all of the above by simply converting to another faith? It’s clean, safe, and legal, and you don’t have to hang out with a lot of sketchy characters.[/quote]


I agree that this probably has a lot to do with it. Going OTD doesn't get nearly the traction anymore that it used to. Becoming Xtian or Muslim is the new way to break the parents' hearts and since Muslim men are not always so kind to their Jewish wives, that leaves Xtianity. I wonder if Yad L'Achim can get involved here and rescue this girl from the Xtians. There also used to be cult busters around to deprogram kids who are brainwashed by these religions.
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2018, 8:01 pm
keym wrote:
No. In certain regions of Spain, (I believe Toledo but I can be wrong) in 1392, there were mobs forcing conversion or murdering.
When the mob died down and the danger passed, the cardinals and priests kept these new "conversos" and their families under very strict supervision to keep them away from the Jews living in the same cities.
The inquisition (established not just for the Jews but to control all the Spanish in the "straight and narrow") persecuted any new conversos who showed signs of straying from Catholicism.
In 1492, the Jews were expelled. These conversos were not expelled because they were considered catholics by the government.
That's not exactly voluntary conversion.
That's convert or die, convert or be expelled, convert or lose all your money. Not commenting on the validity of their choices. Just saying not voluntary.


It's true that the inquisition initially persecuted any new conversos who showed signs of straying from Catholicism and there were forced Jewish conversions in Spain before 1492.

But there was also a mass voluntary conversion going on.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2018, 8:07 pm
leah233 wrote:
The Spanish inquisition targeting Jews started in 1492.

The period before that had a mass voluntary conversion to Catholicism.


The mass conversions were forced. Jews were given a choice: convert or leave. The Inquisition was established to make sure that the New Christians, or conversos as they were officially called, were in fact true to the faith and not secretly observing Jewish practices. Now why would anyone suspect voluntary converts of backsliding? Because they weren’t voluntary, but done under duress.
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amother
Firebrick


 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2018, 8:17 pm
I don't know anyone that actually converted to a different religion. My dh knows several men in our shul who became athiest or agnostic.
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2018, 8:26 pm
amother wrote:
The mass conversions were forced. Jews were given a choice: convert or leave. The Inquisition was established to make sure that the New Christians, or conversos as they were officially called, were in fact true to the faith and not secretly observing Jewish practices. Now why would anyone suspect voluntary converts of backsliding? Because they weren’t voluntary, but done under duress.


The inquisition didn't start in Spain and Jews weren't its first target either.

It wasn't until 1478 that King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella requested from the pope to have it brought to Spain as well.

Even today the OTD community has its own inquisition (more benign of course ) type methods to deal with former and current members who backslide and start keeping mitzvos or admit believing again.

Anyway this is getting too off topic so this is my last post on this thread.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2018, 8:29 pm
I knew someone who became a Wiccan. It’s not like Christianity in that you don’t “convert” to it so much as “join”. They make up a lot as they go along. She had a lot of friends in the movement and was already interested, but what finally did it for her was that when she was diagnosed with a life-threatening sickness, or what she believed was a life-threatening sickness, they did a “healing circle” ritual after which her sickness disappeared. Coincidence? She thought not,

I saw her point, but when she told me that story I saw the point of not arguing miracles as proof of G-d’s existence. Because she saw it as proof of the “goddess’s” existence.
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mommyof6




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2018, 8:45 pm
Anti Jewish riots started in Spain in 1391. The official decree was in 1492, but the attacks started openly earlier.
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amother
Coral


 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2018, 8:46 pm
Atheism is not a religion, you don’t convert to it. You can still be a practicing whatever for cultural reasons.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2018, 9:08 pm
leah233 wrote:
There are few frum people who convert to other religions these days. Those who do are usually lonely people who are attracted to the Xtian message of love. Most people convert to atheism.


The reason behind this because an OTD movement needs the right social , political and psychological backdrop to gain converts. In 2018 most other religions aren't making such an offer in the US.


Back in the 1400s in Spain there was mass conversion to Catholicism, in other countries (later on) there was mass conversion to Islam. Of course those who converted INSISTED that they would have loved to remain frum but as truth seekers there is no way they can deny the truth of Catholicism or Islam.

Looking back at the situation it is obvious that they felt that way because they happened to have lived in a society where those religions were dominant.

Today atheism is offering the most to the OTD crowd so that is what they insist they believe.

You won't find those great "truth seekers" researching and considering say Buddhism for the simple reason. The Buddhists aren't offering anything for their neshomas in the US so why bother?


not sure what you’re saying here, but if you think there’s any kind of serious systematic OTD proselytizing going on, you are mistaken.
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amother
Bronze


 

Post Tue, Oct 16 2018, 10:39 pm
thunderstorm wrote:
And so so many people that are OTD say they are atheists and don't believe in G-D at all. Yet when one person converts to Christianity , a big deal is being made. Scratching Head


Most OTD people are not atheists but agnostic. There's a distinct difference.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 17 2018, 1:00 am
I guess that I used to be surprised that someone could appear to be frum and practice Orthodox Judaism and really not believe in any of it.
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amother
Sienna


 

Post Wed, Oct 17 2018, 1:03 am
amother wrote:
Most OTD people are not atheists but agnostic. There's a distinct difference.


are there stats?

People stop orthodox practice/belief for a bundle of reasons.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 17 2018, 5:40 am
southernbubby wrote:
I guess that I used to be surprised that someone could appear to be frum and practice Orthodox Judaism and really not believe in any of it.

It’s so widespread there’s a name for it: Orthopraxy. You can be unconvinced that Orthodoxy is correct, but be practicing just in case you’re wrong (the covering-your-bases group); you can be practicing because this is all you know and can’t imagine doing anything else ( the inertia group); you can be practicing because all your friends and family do and how would you relate to them if you stopped ( the social connection group); you can be practicing because you like the orderliness of the ritual and routine even though the spiritual aspect doesn’t do anything for you (the lifestyle group); and I’m sure there are many more reasons.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 17 2018, 5:43 am
I left out that you can be practicing because you love repetition and extreme attention to minuscule detail (the OCD group) and you can be practicing because you hate the rituals and routine and attention to minuscule details (the masochism group) .
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 17 2018, 8:50 am
amother wrote:
But isn't avoda zara, yaharog viahl yaavor? It doesn't say that for atheism?


We don't think historically of an atheist Crusade. Though I guess Stalinist Russia came close.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 17 2018, 8:52 am
keym wrote:
No. In certain regions of Spain, (I believe Toledo but I can be wrong) in 1392, there were mobs forcing conversion or murdering.
When the mob died down and the danger passed, the cardinals and priests kept these new "conversos" and their families under very strict supervision to keep them away from the Jews living in the same cities.
The inquisition (established not just for the Jews but to control all the Spanish in the "straight and narrow") persecuted any new conversos who showed signs of straying from Catholicism.
In 1492, the Jews were expelled. These conversos were not expelled because they were considered catholics by the government.
That's not exactly voluntary conversion.
That's convert or die, convert or be expelled, convert or lose all your money. Not commenting on the validity of their choices. Just saying not voluntary.


Map the Starlight, Leah Gebber's Mishpacha serial, takes place in the 14th century. Life was already unpleasant and dangerous.
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