Help understanding this hashkafa concept

amother

Lawngreen

Thu, Oct 18 2018, 9:15 pm

We all have bechira. That being said, hashem knows the future and therefore knows exactly what will happen and how the story will end. There is no mystery with hashem. With this in mind, why does hashem create reshaim who are destined for gehenim? Hashem knows they will choose not to do teshuva and he will have to throw them into gehenim. What benefit is there for hashem (who knew this rasha would never do teshuva) to create this person?

PinkFridge

Thu, Oct 18 2018, 9:54 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I have always had this question as well.

It is enough to make our heads explode. But we can't understand infinity, and Hashem being above time. I'm trying to remember something a teacher said involving a crumpled up piece of paper that resonated. I think his point was, we think in linear 2 dimensional terms when it comes to time, and he used a piece of paper to illustrate that. Then he crumpled up the paper and said, this is how Hashem is with time - it's all one piece.

There was more, but the point is, there are things we cannot understand. Though there might be some good and interesting attempts out there.

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 18 2018, 10:04 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

The specific question I had was why create reshaim and gehenom? What's the point?

amother

Beige

Thu, Oct 18 2018, 10:12 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

The specific question I had was why create reshaim and gehenom? What's the point?

yes but then we can elaborate on this idea and ask why not just take away bechira and we will all be good and choose good? The answer given was it is so that we can earn punishment and reward but Im sure those who are suffering would probably rather have a better life and not bother with "earning it" especially when a lot of us think we earned it and deserve a better life without suffering. so there really is no answer to any of these questions except that Hashem has a plan and we CANT UNDERSTAND HIS PLAN WITH OUR LIMITED HUMAN MIND.

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 18 2018, 10:14 pm

amother wrote:

Bit of circular reasoning? At the end of the day, sometimes some things are just not comprehensible. That's pretty much the answer, I think.

bigsis144

Thu, Oct 18 2018, 10:19 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

The specific question I had was why create reshaim and gehenom? What's the point?

Hashem created Free Will.

Once an option to choose Wrong was there, Hashem (in His mercy) created gehenom, not as a "burn forever!!!!!!!!" punishment, but as a form of cleansing to allow neshamos to eventually return to their former state of closeness to Him.

--

Predestination vs. Free Will is a classic philosophical debate, not limited to Judaism.

And yes, ultimately it's incomprehensible to humans.

For a great introduction to thinking in/comprehending the concept of extra dimensions, read the book Flatland by Edwin Abbott Abbott. In this book, the resident of a 2-dimensional world comes to grips with the existence of a third dimension, though he cannot truly experience it.

Last edited by bigsis144 on Thu, Oct 18 2018, 10:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 18 2018, 10:27 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

I think I have a bit of a different question than the OP. I don't get why Hashem created reshaim and gehenom. Your answer is "free will"- but that's not an answer at all! Like I said, circular reasoning.

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 18 2018, 10:33 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

So is your question "why did Hashem give us the option to do the Wrong Thing?"

No, the question is why did Hashem create a world where people are destined to suffer and go to gehinom? The Gemarah says most people go to gehenom, so why did Hashem create a world where it is so easy to do the wrong thing and suffer punishment?

I like happy endings, but this doesn't seem to be one...

Also, how do you know that gehenom is only for a short amount of time? For real reshaim, and there are many, isn't it forever? And gehenom is supposed to be way more painful than any suffering imaginable in this world...

bigsis144

Thu, Oct 18 2018, 10:49 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

"Destined to suffer" - in olam hazeh? As in "why do bad things happen to good people?"

As for gehenom, I only ever learned that it's like "dry cleaning" for the neshama before one goes into the presence of the Shechina. "Eternal damnation", as I learned it, is not a Jewish concept (or, to my older and more cynical mind, it bled into Jewish thought from other sources. There is no mention of an afterlife at all in the Torah itself....).

--

In real life, though, I probably skew a little closer to sequoia's view that Hashem is more distant and allows nature and free will to take their course. The Rambam is totally chill with saying that hashgacha pratis only applies to tzadikim and not the every day person. Otherwise I can't wrap my head around the misery and unfairness and unnecessary cruelty that so many people experience in their lives. Hashem wants this person, or millions of individuals, specifically, to suffer in X horrible, senseless way...

I hold lots of cognitive dissonance in order to function as a religious person. I just choose to focus on Olam HaZeh and doing the right thing here without making cheshbonos about my Olam HaBah. Whatever, I'll be dead, whatever part of me will be experiencing things isn't a Me that I can really relate to, she can deal with it....

Last edited by bigsis144 on Thu, Oct 18 2018, 10:53 pm; edited 2 times in total

bobeli

Thu, Oct 18 2018, 10:50 pm

I think this is part of the millions of things about this world that we can't understand because we are limited.
I once heard a shiur comparing it to someone that is by a plane or rocket ship exhibit and ask the person working there: why is this screw placed in this position? And the worker answers: that is your only question? You understand everything else ? How does it fly, how and why the rest is where it is?

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 18 2018, 10:54 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

Um, actually, why do bad things happen to bad people... Or better, how do we know we're not all bad?

I'm not really sure about gehenom, but I think your understanding of it is a bit more rosy than actuality.

And of course the Torah talks about the afterlife. The gemarah - Torah she'baal peh - talks about gehenom a lot.

dankbar

Thu, Oct 18 2018, 11:30 pm

Just because he knows beforehand what choices we will make doesn't take away from our free will & choice. Let's say, you give your child a purple & a red lolly to choose from, you know he always picks the red one, does it take away from his choice? He still has two lollies in front of him & he can still decide which one he wants. Probability says he will most likely pick the red one as he did always in the past. What if he decides to surprise you & pick the purple one instead this time. Kol mdai shmayim chutz yiras shmayim. Every minute the person has the choice to pick between good or bad & can always change his ways & do teshuva where he now stands even higher than the tzaddik. Every Jew can reach plan haboah, it's his choice.

Cheiny

Thu, Oct 18 2018, 11:39 pm

amother wrote:

Many people have to come back as a result of something that they did or happened in a previous gilgul (reincarnation). As others have said, there are things we can not understand about how Hashem runs the world, and therefore I don’t think anyone has real answers to these types of questions.

dankbar

Thu, Oct 18 2018, 11:41 pm

When you are giving your child a choice between a lolly or a lolly chicken ( drumstick) & when he choose the chicken arent you much more thrilled as that is more to his benefit, even if the lolly is more alluring. You will be much more proud of him for making the right choices, & will want to reward him with something even greater than the lolly. So too our Father loves when we choose the right path even if its hard for us, all the more. Just because something seems bad to our human eyes doesn't mean it's bad. Hashem knows whats good for us. That kid doesnt wanna take meds because it tastes yucky but you know better that it will heal him. Do we know whats good for us?