Eye-opening | Imamother

NovelConcept

Fri, Nov 02 2018, 11:40 am

As a person who was on the fence about vaccines for a good few years, admitting that we know relatively little about what we are doing to our childrens' bodies, I have to say that this current epidemic is quite fascinating to watch (human suffering aside) due to the way it is spreading.

So few of us have seen the spread of an epidemic, and have therefore allowed ourselves to question the validity of vaccinations. This measles outbreak has been so eye-opening!

Of course, as mentioned elsewhere, I would never be so foolish to say there are no risks with vaccinating, but in a risk vs. benefit approach, I think we can stop and just look at the numbers to reach a calculated decision:

*Not counting the people who were vaccinated pre-outbreak, how many thousands received the vaccines and died? I've heard of none.

*How many deaths have there been during the outbreak? We know of one specifically tied to measles. Most interesting to note is that I read (don't ask me where) that 1 in 1,000 may die from measles, estimated. In Eretz Yisroel, where the death occurred, they are currently hover at near a thousand confirmed cases of measles, and one death. That's a pretty darn good estimate.

***

As a side point, I just mentally picked-apart something that was niggling at me.
People were saying that part of safe-vaccination, children should be checked for allergies. If they have, the vaccines should not be given.

BUT, how many anti-vaxxers point out the children who have allergies, claiming it is from the vaccines...

Here's the catch: Why are you checking for allergies pre-vaccines if THE ALLERGIES ARE CAUSED BY THE VACCINES?

Does anyone see the loophole here? Could it be, that maybe, allergies are NOT caused by vaccines?

amother

Violet

Fri, Nov 02 2018, 11:59 am

NovelConcept wrote:

2 responses to your 2 points.
1) when they talk about fatality rates they make it sound like it's random and everyone that contracts it is equally at risk. This one death yesterday proves nothing because a) the child was not immune-typical, b) the parents did not provide adequate medical care. These 2 factors are important to take into account when calculating risks for the general population.

2) Allergies are caused by immune over-stimulation. Nobody says vaccines are the only cause for allergies. People do say that vaccines are responsible for the drastic rise in allerges. Vaccines are designed to do exactly this -- over stimulate the immune system and potentially tip it over into dysregulation. So, if someone already has allergies, that's a sign that their immune system is already dys-regulated for whatever reason (genes, other toxins in the environment, heavy metal load passed on through placenta from vaccinated mother??) and they are at greater risk for more dys-regulation. And of course, before ever vaccinate we have no idea who's genetics or other environmental factors put them at increased risk for this kind of dys-regulation that the vaccine will possibly trigger.

amother

Green

Fri, Nov 02 2018, 12:15 pm

There are a number of illnesses that lay dormant in the body and symptoms only come out when the immune system is over worked. That can be because of a bad virus, a bad bacterial infection, or immunizations-which make the immune system work hard. Ever heard anyone say their child has type 1 diabetes because of a stomache virus? I have. It's because the child had a virus, which strained the immune system, which in turn caused their diabetes to become active. The virus did NOT CAUSE the diabetes, it just activated it. Same with allergies. It will often start to be noticed after a child hasn't been feeling well. And the same is with AUTISM!!!!!! These illnesses are all genetic/hereditary. Having worked in the field of special ed, I can say that at least 1 in 8 children that I have come accross with austism have at least 1 other sibling with autism or asperger's.
So when a child does not get immunized, the disease/disorder will show it's face the next time the child gets a strong virus/infection.

just a funny story-a friend of mine has a child with severe allergies. an acquaintance of hers heard about it and announced "sure! It's because of the immunizations that the child got!" to which my friend answered that the child hadn't been immunized until most of the allergies were known. friend responded "really!?!? that's so interesting!! so why does she have allergies??" she was in shock!!!! and she considers herself so well educated and researched, which is why she doesn't immunize!!!

amother

Green

Fri, Nov 02 2018, 12:21 pm

about giving one shot at a time-I do rely on the millions of dollars of research that was done to ensure the safety of the shots combinations. not on the research that little-me has done.
Personally, I'd rather make my child uncomfortable once in a few months, by giving it on schedule, as apposed to every couple of weeks because I spread it out.
I also tried to push off vaccines for another 2 weeks after my baby had been sick with a bad virus, after the doctor told me it was ok to give. By the time those 2 weeks passed, my baby got sick again, and it's been on and off since then. He therefore is quite delayed in shots, and hasn't received the mmr as of yet. He can't get it now as he is fighting MRSA for quite some time now. I am very scared, as I live in an area with many anti-vaxxers. Hashem yiracheim!!

NovelConcept

Fri, Nov 02 2018, 12:36 pm

amother wrote:

2 responses to your 2 points.
1) This one death yesterday proves nothing because a) the child was not immune-typical, b) the parents did not provide adequate medical care. These 2 factors are important to take into account when calculating risks for the general population.

I'm not sure you realize how horrific and uneducated this sounds.
1) Statics take into account the ENTIRE community, not just the healthy segment. 1 in 1,000 includes people with great health, bad health and unknown health.
2) A child died because of measles. Shall I write that again, with emphasis? A CHILD DIED BECAUSE OF MEASLES. Does it really matter that she had Downs? I am sure it didn't matter to her mother nor to anyone who values human life -- whether or not it fits your definition of "perfect" or "healthy."

amother wrote:

And of course, before ever vaccinate we have no idea who's genetics or other environmental factors put them at increased risk for this kind of dys-regulation that the vaccine will possibly trigger.

Allergies happen with or without vaccines, as one mother describes below. It's time to stop finger pointing at vaccines as the cause of ails. It just sounds foolish. (Because it is.)

Last edited by NovelConcept on Fri, Nov 02 2018, 12:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

NovelConcept

Fri, Nov 02 2018, 12:40 pm

amother wrote:

He can't get it now as he is fighting MRSA for quite some time now.

My daughter has had over 30 MRSA infections, so I know what you are going through. I found the game-changer was starting her on daily probiotic. She takes Prodermix APII. It really, really helps. If she misses a few days, a new infection pops up. She's also become generally healthier. Gained weight, better mood, etc.

And I've been scared to vaccinate her as she's always been somewhat sickly, but we gave the MMR and she did get fever the next day, but BH, three weeks later she is perfectly normal and healthier than ever.

amother

Fuchsia

Fri, Nov 02 2018, 12:43 pm

amother wrote:

The death of the child in Jerusalem demonstrates the the Measles virus can be fatal. I have not read any media source that made any sort of claim that all children who contract the virus will die. That would be silly - as there have been recent reports of children with the measles who have not died.

So then the question is - is the media report of the child who died in Jerusalem news worthy at all? Clearly it doesn't make the news every time, chas veshalom, a child dies of a sickness.

I think it is - because the measles outbreak in general is being heavily reported on.

amother

Violet

Fri, Nov 02 2018, 12:55 pm

NovelConcept wrote:

Allergies happen with or without vaccines, as one mother describes below. It's time to stop finger pointing at vaccines as the cause of ails. It just sounds foolish. (Because it is.)

I'm sorry if that came out sounding callous. As a mother of a kid with cancer, and a mother of a kid with developmental delays I know just how precious every single imperfect life is. When talking about vaccination to protect the masses, you are right, the specifics might not matter as much. But I was under the impression you were talking about the risk/benefit analysis people make on an individual level, and there, specifics absolutely do matter. I don't make decisions the same way regarding the health of my cancer kid as I do my healthy kids. Also, when you actually read epidemiological studies, if you read past just the abstract, they do mention whenever possible other complicating factors that may have led to complications in an individual that does not pertain to other individuals. It's just honest. It's dishonest to say that every single person has a 1/1000 chance of dying from a disease when in truth 999 healthy people did just fine and the one that didn't had existing medical conditions.

Regarding allergies: Allergies may happen with or without vaccines. Anyone who doesn't know this is ignorant. But allergies will always have a cause, and the direct cause will be immune over-activation. Vaccines are very likely responsible for the sharp increase in both the rate and severity in allergies that we've been seeing.

amother

Violet

Fri, Nov 02 2018, 2:21 pm

amother wrote:

The death of the child in Jerusalem demonstrates that not seeking appropriate medical attention for a medically fragile child can be fatal. This could have happened with any virus, however benign. This could have happened to a healthy child if the parents allowed the situation to escalate to such a point. The fact that the child happened to have been exposed to measles is almost entirely irrelevant here. The most news-worthy aspect here is that in this day there are still parents who don't take their children to doctors ever, even when the child is clearly in distress.

But of course the media will spin the story to suit their agenda.

amother

Fuchsia

Fri, Nov 02 2018, 3:01 pm

amother wrote:

It did happen with the measles virus. The fact he was exposed to measles is relevant. Right now people are very interested in the measles breakout. NOT reporting on deaths caused by measles would be turning a blind eye.

I didn't see a 'spin' on the story that I read. No fear mongering either.

NovelConcept

Sat, Nov 03 2018, 11:39 pm

amother wrote:

It's dishonest to say that every single person has a 1/1000 chance of dying from a disease when in truth 999 healthy people did just fine and the one that didn't had existing medical conditions.

A gutte voch. I didn't have time to respond to this over Shabbos, so I am getting to this now.

When I first read your responses, I was like, "hey, she has a point."
And then I thought about it a little more.

How do you know that those other (theoretical) 999 people were healthy, without existing medical conditions?

Walk up and down any street and you'll find that in every home there are, on average, health issues. These can range from allergies to eczema to diabetes to developmental disabilities to heart disease to MS to ASL to Crohn's to.. shall I go on?

As mentioned before, statistics take into account the general population, in which there are many people with many conditions.