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I'm Seas, ask me anything
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dina125




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2018, 9:37 am
Seas, I respect your uncompromising view of right and wrong, but I'm just wondering - how would you explain Avraham Avinu's chesed to everyone and davening even for the evil men of sodom? How do you explain the Gedolim such as the Berditchiver who found ways to find the good in every Jew, even the sinners?
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2018, 11:06 am
4pom wrote:
Actually I dont think its about actually really loving those who reject Torah. Its about acting decently and kindly to them.. because I believe thats the Torah way. (And no I dont necessarily believe its everyones job to go out of the way to do that.) But I do go out of my way not to do the opposite..
And about those who have hurt my feelings... that’s my job too... to act towards them with kindness and decency despite the hurt. And yes, realistically its easier to do it with those who have rejected Torah than those who have actively hurt me. That tells you and the world that I’m far more attached to my own feelings than the will of Hashem.. that is human of me. Honestly to claim otherwise would be false. Is it sad on some Higher level that this is so? Of course. But I actually own my humanity and prefer that than what I did in my teenage years and twenties- denied the emotional reality of being human.


You're not addressing my core point. Is your love and tolerance for non-frum people motivated by the mitzvah of ahavas Yisroel, or the corrupt Western values?

I believe the way to test this is to ask yourself honestly whether your boundless ahavas Yisroel extends to molesters and to those who've wronged you. If not, what is it about a mechalel Shabbos for example that you find easier to tolerate than a molester? Is it because they don't offend your sensibilities in the same way? What does that say about your ahavas Hashem?

To be clear, I'm not advocating hating anyone. What I am saying is people shouldn't delude themselves into thinking they're on some kind of great madreigah of ahavas Yisroel because they love and accept even non-frum people, when in fact it's just that they're not personally offended by someone trampling on the Torah.

It's not such a subtle and hard to grasp point, and honestly I wish people would read and understand what I'm saying before disagreeing. I mean disagree all you like, but at the very least show that you understood what I said, and where your view differs.
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2018, 11:10 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Acceptance and love of a person does not have to be connected to the way they serve hashem or how they practice judaism.
I know that if I love someone it is on the merit of so many things, their avodat hashem hardly plays into it at all.
It makes me sad to think that there could be a lovely person out there that you would not accept in your life solely based on how s/he serves hashem. To me, that is not what judaism is about.


I'll bite. On what do you base your view of what Judaism is all about?

And BTW my comment was a reply to another poster who wrote that things aren't always black and white. But that's a wishy washy way of not having to define your stance. Which is why I tried pushing her to the proverbial wall and asking what happens when it is black and white, I.e. when there are no shittos that permit it.
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2018, 11:15 am
PinkFridge wrote:
No, because I don't equate tinokos shenishbu with molesters. (Do you?)

Or maybe you'll tell me I'm conflating the compassion I feel for tinokos shenishbu with ahavas Yisrael, and they're two different things and the first is fully appropriate?


Again, this is just a coward's way out. You're pitting a complete rasha against someone with mitigating circumstances.

What about someone who had a good life and went OTD?

This isn't about finding where exactly to draw the line, but about defining where your sensibilities lie. Do you feel personally aggrieved by someone who doesn't follow the Torah, and if not why not?
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dina125




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2018, 11:23 am
So ideally, you're saying we really should love everyone (even those that are like the people of Sodom) - of course not saying that what they're doing is right - but since we are not on that level like Avraham Avinu, we should not say we love EVERYONE, when we really don't?
And since we are not on that level to love everyone despite their actions, is it better to tell them that or to be kind to them anyway, despite that? Are you saying basically this is a philosophical understanding of what is right vs wrong, to keep our own integrity safe, but practically speaking, need to be kind to everyone, no matter what they do?

In your view, is there a difference in the way a person should love/be kind to/advocate a Jew vs a Non-Jew, despite what his actions are?

Also, are we in a position to judge anyone - what about the nuances, like if the person realizes he's doing something wrong or not or if had a different level to start with and has grown much since then? Isn't Hashem the only true Judge? Of course we can say from our understanding, we don't believe like that/what they're doing is not right, but can we judge any person?
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2018, 11:35 am
Seas wrote:
Again, this is just a coward's way out. You're pitting a complete rasha against someone with mitigating circumstances.

What about someone who had a good life and went OTD?

This isn't about finding where exactly to draw the line, but about defining where your sensibilities lie. Do you feel personally aggrieved by someone who doesn't follow the Torah, and if not why not?


I am aggrieved by someone who doesn't follow the Torah. As for someone who went OTD, I would have to know more. So many people who went OTD did so because of those kinds of mitigating circumstances.

Look, could be because I was in a rush as I am now, and my reading comprehension was off.
I actually left off a few question mark. I wrote ? as opposed to ??? because the latter is how I read it. It sounded to me like you were fully equating a molester with a tinok shenishba. I'm sorry that I wasn't dlkz because obviously no one does.

That's my take away from this post, and again, maybe my reading comprehension isn't up to par.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2018, 11:38 am
Seas wrote:
You're not addressing my core point. Is your love and tolerance for non-frum people motivated by the mitzvah of ahavas Yisroel, or the corrupt Western values?

I believe the way to test this is to ask yourself honestly whether your boundless ahavas Yisroel extends to molesters and to those who've wronged you. If not, what is it about a mechalel Shabbos for example that you find easier to tolerate than a molester? Is it because they don't offend your sensibilities in the same way? What does that say about your ahavas Hashem?

To be clear, I'm not advocating hating anyone. What I am saying is people shouldn't delude themselves into thinking they're on some kind of great madreigah of ahavas Yisroel because they love and accept even non-frum people, when in fact it's just that they're not personally offended by someone trampling on the Torah.

It's not such a subtle and hard to grasp point, and honestly I wish people would read and understand what I'm saying before disagreeing. I mean disagree all you like, but at the very least show that you understood what I said, and where your view differs.


I am aggrieved. I am sad for kavod Shamayim. I cannot be offended because they don't know better.
I won't be more offended than Hashem Himself is He is the Nosen yad laposhim. I believe He is pained by not offended by people who are so profoundly clueless. I know tinokos shenishbu of all ages, including senior citizens who don't have the living memories of fully observant grandparents that seniors of a generation or two back had.
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2018, 6:46 pm
Seas wrote:
Yes I can. And your second assertion is nonsense, as that means someone who actually doesn't believe, not someone who doesn't remember the beliefs by heart.


Reb Chaim Brisker said that you can't believe something you don't know...

If someone doesn't know 13 Ikkarim, they are in fact a Nebach-Apikorus
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2018, 8:14 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
Reb Chaim Brisker said that you can't believe something you don't know...

If someone doesn't know 13 Ikkarim, they are in fact a Nebach-Apikorus


No he didn't.

Your entire challenge is built in a false premise - that we need to remember the 13 ikkarim by heart.

Ask any frum person if they believe that Hashem created the world and everything that happens is from Him, and therefore it's pointless to daven to anyone else. If they believe in Torah mishamayim through Moishe Rabeinu, the greatest navi. If they believe that Hashem knows everything and there is schar v'onesh. If they believe in mashiach and techiyas hameisim.

Every frum Jew will answer in the affirmative to all of the above.

That means they believe. They don't need to know the text of the 13 ani maamins by heart.

BTW, I do know them by heart as I memorized them many years ago, and often go over them. But that's just beside the point.
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2018, 8:19 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
I am aggrieved by someone who doesn't follow the Torah. As for someone who went OTD, I would have to know more. So many people who went OTD did so because of those kinds of mitigating circumstances.

Look, could be because I was in a rush as I am now, and my reading comprehension was off.
I actually left off a few question mark. I wrote ? as opposed to ??? because the latter is how I read it. It sounded to me like you were fully equating a molester with a tinok shenishba. I'm sorry that I wasn't dlkz because obviously no one does.

That's my take away from this post, and again, maybe my reading comprehension isn't up to par.


I was also rushing, which is why I allowed myself to slightly veer off course. I wasn't comparing any one aveiroh to another, as that's irrelevant.

What I was saying is that if you accept that ahavas Yisroel notwithstanding, you are simply incapable of loving some Yidden because of their terrible deeds (like molesters), than we are basically in agreement that ahavas Yisroel doesn't apply to every rasha.

Now the question is only where to draw the line. But don't tell me that I should love every Yid when you also don't.
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Nov 07 2018, 8:38 pm
dina125 wrote:
So ideally, you're saying we really should love everyone (even those that are like the people of Sodom) - of course not saying that what they're doing is right - but since we are not on that level like Avraham Avinu, we should not say we love EVERYONE, when we really don't?
And since we are not on that level to love everyone despite their actions, is it better to tell them that or to be kind to them anyway, despite that? Are you saying basically this is a philosophical understanding of what is right vs wrong, to keep our own integrity safe, but practically speaking, need to be kind to everyone, no matter what they do?

In your view, is there a difference in the way a person should love/be kind to/advocate a Jew vs a Non-Jew, despite what his actions are?

Also, are we in a position to judge anyone - what about the nuances, like if the person realizes he's doing something wrong or not or if had a different level to start with and has grown much since then? Isn't Hashem the only true Judge? Of course we can say from our understanding, we don't believe like that/what they're doing is not right, but can we judge any person?


My stance is that all our actions should be guided by and viewed through the lens of Torah and halacha. We don't do chesed in order to be nice people, but because Hashem commanded us to do it. We don't refrain from stealing because it's not nice, but because Hashem forbade it. And so on.

Now, in interpersonal relations, specifically regarding the mitzvah of loving Yidden, there are clear halachic parameters.

One is that all dinim of bein adam l'chaveiro only apply to Yidden who keep the Torah. By that I mean that they're not mechalel Shabbos publicly, they believe in the 13 ikkarim, and they don't wantonly and gratuitosly transgress any other halachos.

According to simple halacha (this is found in many places, including the sefarim of the Chafetz Chaim), there is no chiyuv to love a mechalel Shabbos, nor is there an issur to speak lashon hora about an apikorus.

According to simple reading of the texts, Hashem also doesn't love such people. In fact, it's also the basis of schar v'onesh, that there's a difference between a tzadik and a rasha.

So far so clear? If not, please re-read or ask for clarification.

Now, there is perhaps a basis according to chassidus to love every Yid, even the greatest sinner. There is also the concept that on a deeper level Hashem loves every single Yid, regardless of their level of observance.

So one might think, fine, I'll act according to chassidus and love my frei neighbor.

My problem with this is that unfortunately there is also a modern Western ideal of "live and let live". It's not your business what other adults do, and if they decide not to keep the Torah, you must respect their decision.

This ideal is the antithesis of the Torah view that (a) kol Yisroel areivim zeh lazeh, and (b) we don't respect and love out of a utilitarian moral, but because it's a mitzvah of Hashem.

Therefore, when someone claims to love reshaim because of the ultimate level of ahavas Yisroel, I'm very skeptical that this is indeed their motivation. My test, as previously written, is to check whether this person loves those who've personally wronged them, and also if they love those who society finds acceptable to judge (like molesters).

So in conclusion, what should be the right way to act?

Start with loving those whom halacha requires you love, I.e. all frum Yidden. When you've mastered this mitzvah on the halachic level, now you can step it up to the level of chassidus (which means lifnim mishuras hadin, going above and beyond). But don't run before you can walk, because then it's almost certainly not motivated by kedusha.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 08 2018, 2:09 am
Seas wrote:
I'll bite. On what do you base your view of what Judaism is all about?

And BTW my comment was a reply to another poster who wrote that things aren't always black and white. But that's a wishy washy way of not having to define your stance. Which is why I tried pushing her to the proverbial wall and asking what happens when it is black and white, I.e. when there are no shittos that permit it.
I dont understand what your question about what judaism is based on has anything to do with not frum people and how or why we love them. Can you please explain what the connection is?

To me, loving or liking another hiuman being has NOTHING to do with their religious level, nothing. I love someone on their own merit, not weather or not they keep mitzvot or are machalel shabbat.
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 08 2018, 2:11 am
Seas wrote:
Again, this is just a coward's way out. You're pitting a complete rasha against someone with mitigating circumstances.

What about someone who had a good life and went OTD?

This isn't about finding where exactly to draw the line, but about defining where your sensibilities lie. Do you feel personally aggrieved by someone who doesn't follow the Torah, and if not why not?
What about them? They are living THEIR life and thats that. We can love them or not, but it has nothing to do with them being otd.
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4pom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 08 2018, 2:15 am
Seas wrote:
You're not addressing my core point. Is your love and tolerance for non-frum people motivated by the mitzvah of ahavas Yisroel, or the corrupt Western values?

I believe the way to test this is to ask yourself honestly whether your boundless ahavas Yisroel extends to molesters and to those who've wronged you. If not, what is it about a mechalel Shabbos for example that you find easier to tolerate than a molester? Is it because they don't offend your sensibilities in the same way? What does that say about your ahavas Hashem?

To be clear, I'm not advocating hating anyone. What I am saying is people shouldn't delude themselves into thinking they're on some kind of great madreigah of ahavas Yisroel because they love and accept even non-frum people, when in fact it's just that they're not personally offended by someone trampling on the Torah.

It's not such a subtle and hard to grasp point, and honestly I wish people would read and understand what I'm saying before disagreeing. I mean disagree all you like, but at the very least show that you understood what I said, and where your view differs.


I’m sorry you feel misunderstood and unheard. I will try to be clearer.

I hear you saying that claiming ahavas Yisroel but choosing “sinners” over people who have rejected Hashems Will is not truth. And the ability to find it easier to love “sinners” than those who have hurt us just proves that we are not motivated by Kovod haTorah or Ahavas Hashem.
Of course this may be true. -and may not!
It isnt my point.

My point is that it isn't about actually loving “sinners”. And it isnt about proving that my motivation is defending Hashems honor and not my own. Its about following Judaic values of Beis Hillel. Its not about following corrupt Western values. Its about treating all with decency and kindness. Of course it may be easier to disregard personal hurt with a sinner than with a person who has personally hurt me. But thats bc I’m human and am not on the madreiga of pure motivation. Why would that make my obligation to treat all with kindness less? And our avoda is to work on both fronts.

Theres no deluding myself!!
There’s actually following Gds way of compassion and non-judgement.
Its about Beis Hillel not Beis shammai.

Your exacting standards are just that, but in no way change the practical reality that theres a need for compassion and non judgement in our treatment of people. ( not in our value-system. )

This leads to my next point. Which I’ll leave to another post. Basically that this exacting expectation of self is then reflected in our judgement of others. Both of which are false. I truly have come to learn that Hashem in creating the world- Shitof imo middas harachamim. The world could not survive on din alone. In our attitude to both ourselves and others there has to be rachamim. Or survival is impossible.
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4pom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 08 2018, 2:27 am
Seas wrote:
My stance is that all our actions should be guided by and viewed through the lens of Torah and halacha. We don't do chesed in order to be nice people, but because Hashem commanded us to do it. We don't refrain from stealing because it's not nice, but because Hashem forbade it. And so on.

Now, in interpersonal relations, specifically regarding the mitzvah of loving Yidden, there are clear halachic parameters.

One is that all dinim of bein adam l'chaveiro only apply to Yidden who keep the Torah. By that I mean that they're not mechalel Shabbos publicly, they believe in the 13 ikkarim, and they don't wantonly and gratuitosly transgress any other halachos.

According to simple halacha (this is found in many places, including the sefarim of the Chafetz Chaim), there is no chiyuv to love a mechalel Shabbos, nor is there an issur to speak lashon hora about an apikorus.

According to simple reading of the texts, Hashem also doesn't love such people. In fact, it's also the basis of schar v'onesh, that there's a difference between a tzadik and a rasha.

So far so clear? If not, please re-read or ask for clarification.

Now, there is perhaps a basis according to chassidus to love every Yid, even the greatest sinner. There is also the concept that on a deeper level Hashem loves every single Yid, regardless of their level of observance.

So one might think, fine, I'll act according to chassidus and love my frei neighbor.

My problem with this is that unfortunately there is also a modern Western ideal of "live and let live". It's not your business what other adults do, and if they decide not to keep the Torah, you must respect their decision.

This ideal is the antithesis of the Torah view that (a) kol Yisroel areivim zeh lazeh, and (b) we don't respect and love out of a utilitarian moral, but because it's a mitzvah of Hashem.

Therefore, when someone claims to love reshaim because of the ultimate level of ahavas Yisroel, I'm very skeptical that this is indeed their motivation. My test, as previously written, is to check whether this person loves those who've personally wronged them, and also if they love those who society finds acceptable to judge (like molesters).

So in conclusion, what should be the right way to act?

Start with loving those whom halacha requires you love, I.e. all frum Yidden. When you've mastered this mitzvah on the halachic level, now you can step it up to the level of chassidus (which means lifnim mishuras hadin, going above and beyond). But don't run before you can walk, because then it's almost certainly not motivated by kedusha.


I hear you again in several posts expressing really eloquently your belief that our Ahavas yisroel should be following Torah directives since we always draw a line somewhere based on our own personal “corrupted western values”.
As a value what you are saying rings true on some theoretical level. But not ultimately.
And I actually an not talking theoretically. About values But about the way to really grow spiritual and personally.
In practice I do believe my avoda is non judgement to all! Including the worst of society. Murders and molesters.
Of course pragmatically protecting ourselves. But judgement is out. How do I know their life experiences and point of free choice. How did reb Aryeh Levine treat prisoners of the worse crimes. “ you need to be in jail to protect society from your inability to control yourself... but... “he treated them all with dignity and kindness. He saw the elokus in all.
I deeply believe this is the avoda of today. To find the Elokus in ourselves despite our own failures ANd lack of perfection. And its this attitude that will help us see the good in others and see them without judgement.

Of course theres a danger in this approach- it must be balanced my preserving Torah values.
The alternative though has its own dangers. Which you are representing and which I believe I myslef relate to in my earlier experiences. The exacting standards has a profound problem in fogetting the Rachamim and inherent imperfection in the world as Hashem created it ( Tanya) and can lead to a host of inner-personal and inter-personal issues.

Edited to fix typos. ANd add that again I hear your theoretical point and have actually been there. Life experience has brought me to understand that the spiritual work is in the practical acceptance of this world as HASHem created it. With its imperfections and the imperfections also and especially in myself. AND the true spiritual growth is in accepting and seeing Hashems Will in all. And in that acceptance of Hashems Will and compassion , following His way to see the light in the imperfections and have compassion and suspend judgement for all. The suspension of judgement and focusing on Elokus is true humility and emuna.
(Tanya) And iMVHO the avoda of this generation
Excuse the rambling
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 08 2018, 9:01 am
Seas wrote:
I was also rushing, which is why I allowed myself to slightly veer off course. I wasn't comparing any one aveiroh to another, as that's irrelevant.

What I was saying is that if you accept that ahavas Yisroel notwithstanding, you are simply incapable of loving some Yidden because of their terrible deeds (like molesters), than we are basically in agreement that ahavas Yisroel doesn't apply to every rasha.

Now the question is only where to draw the line. But don't tell me that I should love every Yid when you also don't.


But it's not just a matter of loving. I am repulsed by some because of how much they have hurt others and tarnished their souls, with full knowledge of the depth of their depravity.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 08 2018, 9:06 am
Seas wrote:

According to simple halacha (this is found in many places, including the sefarim of the Chafetz Chaim), there is no chiyuv to love a mechalel Shabbos, nor is there an issur to speak lashon hora about an apikorus.



Start with loving those whom halacha requires you love, I.e. all frum Yidden. When you've mastered this mitzvah on the halachic level, now you can step it up to the level of chassidus (which means lifnim mishuras hadin, going above and beyond). But don't run before you can walk, because then it's almost certainly not motivated by kedusha.


First, most mechallelei Shabbos aren't apikorsim.

I can't compartmentalize, and I don't know if love should be. First I have to work on fully loving x, then y? What if I can't get past loving my immediate family first because it takes too much energy?
How is this love manifested? Are we talking about giving tzedaka, or just having good feelings? When I talk about kibutz galiyos in Ahava Raba and Shemone Esrei should I not think fondly of those who I hope will also be able to join us? (Assuming I'm zoche?)
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Seas




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 09 2018, 8:50 am
It's seems it's min hashamayim that just this week Rabbi Brog addresses several of the topics we mentioned, in one of his shiurim.

Amongst other things he talks about the motivation of ahavas Yisroel to reshaim, and the truth of Brisk.

https://www.torahanytime.com/#.....70041
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 09 2018, 10:28 am
Thanks, Seas. I'll try to listen later today be"H.

Here's another aspect. I learn with several not yet frum women on a regular basis and also find myself interacting with not yet frum people, at shiurim, in other situations. If I can't project sincere love/like towards them, then the whole endeavor's worthless. And it's not just under official kiruv circumstances, it's how I make the Shem Shamayim misaheiv through my actions.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 09 2018, 2:12 pm
OK, doing this in a separate post.
I listened to the shiur.
My first thought: I am not beyond the pale. According to Rabbi Brog, people with misplaced ahavas Yisrael will be the first to be mevazeh those leaders who really deserve our respect. I would like to think that I am not in machaneh of the mevazim and leitzanim. (I regularly stand up for rabbanim, and the process of daas Torah and consistently following rabbanim. As for leitzanus, see September June's sig line, unless she's changed it.)

Next: Seas, you are consistent in your hashkafos and I respect that. And I will not dis Rabbi Brog. I know that there are many people from all walks of life who respect him, which might surprise people who don't know him at all and hear these shiurim.
But I disagree. He seems to be of the camp that there is no such thing as tinok shenishba as you have to be living under a rock (my words) not to know that there is such a thing as Jews not eating pork so any Jew who does can't plead tinok shenishba. Two thoughts:
1. Years ago there was an article in Tradition by a BT who had a been a reform rabbi, and during that tekufa in his life he'd never even heard of the concept of carrying on Shabbos. There is incredible pathetic ignorance.
2. Many poskim say that being apprised that certain things are mandatory/assur according to halacha doesn't take away tinok shenishba status. It is already several generations of our people, r"l, being so lost that they think like the Greeks: oh, you have your god, we have ours. They are so lost, and so uninformed that they just don't get it. You can pamphlet-bomb their neighborhoods and they can read every single word but it won't mean a thing to them.

Gotta run, I need to make some chicken.
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