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Seas

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 10:47 am

So you agree with the concept, it's just the specifics that you disagree with.

It's often helpful to first define the abstract, and then see where it should be applied.

dankbar

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 11:18 am

I think anyone not frum can still do teshuva so why not view them as good but not enlightened yet & that one day they will return. By being them mekarev & showing love & care you just might facilitate their return by showing them contempt they are being more driven away

goodmorning

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 1:50 pm

Seas wrote:

My stance is that all our actions should be guided by and viewed through the lens of Torah and halacha. We don't do chesed in order to be nice people, but because Hashem commanded us to do it. We don't refrain from stealing because it's not nice, but because Hashem forbade it. And so on.

Now, in interpersonal relations, specifically regarding the mitzvah of loving Yidden, there are clear halachic parameters.

One is that all dinim of bein adam l'chaveiro only apply to Yidden who keep the Torah. By that I mean that they're not mechalel Shabbos publicly, they believe in the 13 ikkarim, and they don't wantonly and gratuitosly transgress any other halachos.

According to simple halacha (this is found in many places, including the sefarim of the Chafetz Chaim), there is no chiyuv to love a mechalel Shabbos, nor is there an issur to speak lashon hora about an apikorus.

Seas, you may be interested in seeing the halachic psak of the Chazon Ish (who was hardly a meikil!) in this area. YD Hilchos Shechita 2:16:

נראה דאין דין מורידין אלא בזמן שהשגחתו גלויה כמו בזמן שהיו נסים מצויין ומשמשת בת קול וצדיקי הדור תחת השגחה פרטית הנראית לעין כל. והכופרין אז הם בנליזות מיוחדת בהטיית היצר לתאוות מיוחדות והפקרות, ואז היה בעיור רשעים גדרו של עולם, שהכל ידעו כי הדחת הדור מביא פורעניות לעולם ומביא דבר וחרב ורעב בעולם. אבל בזמן ההעלם שנכרתה האמונה מן דלת העם, אין במעשה הורדה גדר הפרצה אלא הוספת הפרצה, שיהיה בעיניהם כמעשה השחתה ואלימות ח"ו. וכיוון שכל עצמנו לתקן, אין הדין נוהג בשעה שאין בו תיקון, ועלינו להחזירם בעבותות אהבה ולעמידם בקרן אורה במה שידינו מגעת

PinkFridge

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 3:30 pm

Seas wrote:

So you agree with the concept, it's just the specifics that you disagree with.

It's often helpful to first define the abstract, and then see where it should be applied.

I'm a little bit sleep deprived. Can you spell this out more clearly? Thanks.

Seas

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 3:36 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I'm a little bit sleep deprived. Can you spell this out more clearly? Thanks.

Law, for one, is written in the abstract, and it's up to judges to determine where to apply it. Let's say the law is a thief goes to jail. Now the judges decide whether Mr X is indeed a thief and whether any mitigating circumstances should be taken into account.

In our case, Rabbi Brog was talking about loving reshaim. It appears to me that you agree with the gist of what he was saying.

Where you differ is in the application of the term rasha. He would apply it to any frei adult, while you would only apply it to someone who isn't a tinok shenishba - for example an OTD.

Right?

FranticFrummie

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 3:40 pm

dankbar wrote:

I couldn't agree more!

Seas, how do you feel about this thread being 14 pages long, and having far more comments than any other AMA thread? Do you think that this indicates that you are a controversial person?

PinkFridge

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 3:41 pm

Seas wrote:

I was about to say, "If you're reducing it to this, then I agree," and hit send. Then - Holy delayed reaction, Batman! - I just noticed your last few words in the nick of time.
I can't agree. I can't make a blanket statement that I put all OTD people in the category of reshaim. I have a hard time thinking that anyone could.

Seas

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 3:51 pm

goodmorning wrote:

I'm curious whether you know to what din the Chazon Ish was referring.

The halacha is that when someone becomes a known apikorus of their own volition, it's a mitzvah for every Yid to kill them without even consulting beis din. This is in contrast with a [gentile], whom we aren't allowed to save from danger, but we mustn't outright kill.

Someone who kills an apikorus, says the Rambam and SA, has done a great mitzvah of "fencing the breach".

Comes along the Chazon Ish and says that nowadays, when there is such widespread atheism among the common folk, killing an apikorus isn't considered "fencing the breach" but rather "widening the breach".

This is because most people don't believe or understand how the sins of people bring about terrible destruction for the entire world (this ignorance is unfortunately very much evident on the 'frum' imamother.com forums).

Therefore, were one to kill an apikorus, it would be regarded by all as a terrible act of violence. And as the only purpose of killing them is to fix the problems, where it would only create more problems it's not to be done. Instead, we should try to be mekarev them with love.

This isn't really connected to what I was saying. But thanks for bringing it.

sequoia

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 3:52 pm

Are you mdoif?

PinkFridge

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 3:53 pm

Seas wrote:

Where does dina d'malchusa dina fit in with this?

Seas

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 3:54 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

The basic idea of this thread was to give anyone who was interested an idea into what makes me tick. Most posters were polite even when asking blunt questions.

In the last few pages it's basically veered off topic.

But to answer your question, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm 'controversial' but certainly that I often go against the grain, and can provide food for thought.

Seas

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 3:58 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Where does dina d'malchusa dina fit in with this?

It doesn't. Dina d'malchusa is never a factor when it clashes with tho Torah. AFAIK it's mainly applied for financial dinim.

goodmorning

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 4:29 pm

Seas wrote:

The halacha of "moridin v'ein ma'alin" does not apply only to an apikorus; the Gemara applies it to the מינין והמסורות והמומרים. The latter category of מומרים refers specifically to a mumar l'hach'is, as opposed to a mumar l'teiavon, and is the source of the halachic differentiation between the two. A mumar l'hach'is is considered a min l'halacha -- for example, you would be required to kill him -- and a mumar l'teiavon is not. (The discussion in the Gemara, Avoda Zara 26b, the topic brings a contradiction between the halacha of returning an aveida that belongs to a mumar and this one, and concludes that the former is referring to a mumar l'teiavon and this is referring to a mumar l'hachis.)

When you speak of dinim of bein adam l'chaveiro that do not apply to those who "wantonly and gratuitosly transgress ... halachos," you are implicitly referring to a mumar l'hachis. The Chazon Ish, in the quote above, makes the (somewhat innovative) halachic declaration that essentially everyone should be considered as a mumar l'teiavon (essentially as a tinok shenishba, even if they grew up among Yidden) because today is it so hard to discern the truth etc. etc. In doing so, the Chazon Ish says that all of the relevant dinim apply to everyone today because no one is considered as having left the category of "amcha."

I was in particular highlighting the last part of the quote, in which the Chazon Ish urges us to attempt to return such people with "cords of love," thus indicating that we should not hate such people, but rather act with love. He makes this point even more explicitly a bit later on, Hilchos Shechita 2:28, in which he says that we are mandated to act with love even to reshaim because we don't know how to give tochacha properly. (You can see it here, http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdf.....lite= Sorry, no time to type.)

PinkFridge

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 4:44 pm

Seas wrote:

It doesn't. Dina d'malchusa is never a factor when it clashes with tho Torah. AFAIK it's mainly applied for financial dinim.

I know it has to do with financial dinim, and I should have said so. I still don't see how the halacha could be applied even in the Rambam's time.

Seas

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 4:51 pm

I think the CI is referring to frei people who remain frei despite being told about Torah and mitzvos. That's where one would apply the concept of us not knowing how to give tochacha. But I don't see how this is relevant to someone who was raised frum and from their own volition went OTD.

But I'm not a posek.

goodmorning

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 4:52 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I would like to think that I am not in machaneh of the mevazim and leitzanim. (I regularly stand up for rabbanim, and the process of daas Torah and consistently following rabbanim.

I just saw this and wanted to stand up in support of PF, who is one of the sincerest posters on this board in her love for HKBH, His Torah, His people and His rabbanim. Her posts are a testimony to her status as one of the talmidim of Aharon HaKohen.

naturalmom5

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 4:55 pm

Seas wrote:

WOW..... Seas admits that....

Are all the planets in alignment tonite

goodmorning

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 4:58 pm

Seas wrote:

As far as I can tell, he applies the entire concept sweepingly across the board to all Jews because of the lack of clarity today. As I said, it's somewhat innovative.

But even if you're distinguishing between those who grew up non-frum and those who went OTD, it is worth noting that it is rare to find someone today who goes OTD because he intellectually doesn't believe in Hashem or wants to rebel. Most people who go OTD today do so out of pain for some reason or another, or maybe out of taivos, thus making them a mumar l'teiavon. (If you want anecdata, there was an AMA thread recently about a husband who went OTD that pretty much drove this point home, at least for n=2 or so.)

(I can think of several people in OO circles who probably consider themselves OTD who appear to be expressing apikorsus out of intellectual belief. By all means, ask a shaila about your obligation, or lack thereof, to love them.)

PinkFridge

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 6:34 pm

sequoia wrote:

Are you mdoif?

Say what? And thanks, good morning.

About to go comment on a politics thread and give Seas some nachas.

Coffee Addict

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 9:08 pm

sequoia wrote:

Are you mdoif?

I always thought so! Hesitant about it.

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