



amother
Seagreen

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 8:34 am
There are some videos out there that have some incredible proofs that substantiate the Torah and its divine truth. Some of them are very long. Has anyone seen any of them and would care to share their favorite or best proof?
 

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imasoftov

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 8:41 am
The way this always goes is, people argue with the proofs (not with what the proofs claim to prove, just that they prove it) and then a moderator locks the thread.
 

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PinkFridge

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 8:55 am
Many of these sources can truly be mechazek.
But it's important to know that some of our biggest contemporary baalei machshava, like Rabbi Tatz (who I'm sure would not like being given this title but what can I do, it fits), shy away from the word proof. Nothing will be 100% proof. However there's more than enough out there to be considered reasonable evidence sufficient for us to choose to believe.
 

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amother
Seagreen

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 9:00 am
imasoftov wrote:  The way this always goes is, people argue with the proofs (not with what the proofs claim to prove, just that they prove it) and then a moderator locks the thread. 
Maybe so. Nevertheless, I'd still like to hear 2 or 3 amazing seemingly indisputable proofs.
 

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Jeanette

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 9:38 am
I'm always skeptical of scientific proofs. Our attachment to Torah transcends sechel so when we try to put it into a framework that fits our sechel we are actually diminishing Torah.
From what I've read from frum scientists, their approach is not to attempt to disprove science or to put forth spurious arguments filled with logical holes. Their approach is based on humility, that our understanding of science is limited and our understanding of Gd is even more limited. Based on current understanding there may appear to be contradictions but as our knowledge expands those contradictions will be resolved. That may not happen until Moshiach comes.
 

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amother
Seagreen

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 9:46 am
My understanding is that there are certain predictions or ideas that are in the gemara and tenach that where thousands of years before there time. Does anyone know any of these?
 

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Mommyg8

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 9:52 am
Jeanette wrote:  I'm always skeptical of scientific proofs. Our attachment to Torah transcends sechel so when we try to put it into a framework that fits our sechel we are actually diminishing Torah.
From what I've read from frum scientists, their approach is not to attempt to disprove science or to put forth spurious arguments filled with logical holes. Their approach is based on humility, that our understanding of science is limited and our understanding of Gd is even more limited. Based on current understanding there may appear to be contradictions but as our knowledge expands those contradictions will be resolved. That may not happen until Moshiach comes. 
I love this post!
For those who are interested, there is an amazing book called "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" by Shmuel Waldman. As the title suggests, there is no "proof" but there is a lot of interesting points in his book that are really fascinating.
For anyone who is even remotely honest with themselves about searching for answers, this is a must read. It's written in easy language and most of the book is simply fascinating. I highly suggest It!
He also has links to websites and lists other books to read for further information.
 

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Jeanette

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 10:32 am
amother wrote:  My understanding is that there are certain predictions or ideas that are in the gemara and tenach that where thousands of years before there time. Does anyone know any of these? 
The problem is that these predictions rely on a very selective reading of the Gemara while ignoring other Gemaras that contradict modern science.
If we want to use them to prove that the Amoraim were ahead of modern science, then you have to explain away other Gemaras that prove the opposite.
 

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dankbar

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 12:18 pm
My hub told me a very interesting thing that every lashon Hakodesh noun word in Torah, if you add it up minus the misper kuton will equal 9 which is gematria of emes to show that the Torah is emes. Also every 9th letter in Torah shows on emes. I will have to ask him exactly how you make the calculations. We tried it on many words & it was true.
Last edited by dankbar on Mon, Nov 05 2018, 12:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
 

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dankbar

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 12:19 pm
That's why Torah was started with bais & not aleph bc otherwise cheshbon of every 9th letter wouldnt shtim
 

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amother
Vermilion

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 12:20 pm
If things were crystal clear we would have no bechira. You will have to do your own research and find what resonates with you. AYLOR if you are looking for support with this.
 

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PinkFridge

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 8:15 pm
amother wrote:  My understanding is that there are certain predictions or ideas that are in the gemara and tenach that where thousands of years before there time. Does anyone know any of these? 
These things can be really cool but you can't base your emunah on them.
 

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naturalmom5

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 8:19 pm
For those who can study it in the original language...
Study the Kuzari , the Moreh Nevuchim , or any seforim by Avraham ben haRambam
 

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goodmorning

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 8:43 pm
dankbar wrote:  My hub told me a very interesting thing that every lashon Hakodesh noun word in Torah, if you add it up minus the misper kuton will equal 9 which is gematria of emes to show that the Torah is emes. Also every 9th letter in Torah shows on emes. I will have to ask him exactly how you make the calculations. We tried it on many words & it was true. 
I must be misunderstanding your first sentence. You don't mean that the mispar katan of every noun in the Torah is 9, right? Because that's just not true.
To start from the beginning:
שָּׁמַ֖יִם = 300 + 40 + 40 + 10 = 390 = 12 = 3
אָֽרֶץ = 1 + 200 + 90 = 291 = 12 = 3
תְה֑וֹם = 400 + 5+ 6 + 40 = 451 = 10 = 1
ר֣וּחַ = 200 + 6 + 8 = 214 = 7
There are obviously some words whose mispar katan does equal 9 (e.g. א֑וֹר = 200 + 6 + 1 = = 9) but assuming a uniform distribution of "mispar katan"s, we'd get 1/9 of all nouns having a mispar katan of 9 and I don't see any indication that the incidence exceeds that.
I assume that I'm misreading your post, though.
 

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rachelmom1

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 9:19 pm
I think she meant if you subtract the mispar katan from the total it's divisible by 9.
I tried a few and it worked.
Using "Ruach" 214, less mispar katan of 16 = 198 which is divisible by 9.
 

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goodmorning

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 9:28 pm
Oh. Thanks for clarifying; I completely missed that!
In that case, it's true that the gematria of any noun in the Torah, minus the mispar katan, is evenly divisible by 9.
But it's also true of any number in the world, even those that don't stem from a gematria of a noun in the Torah: take any number, subtract the sum of its digits and the result will be evenly divisible by 9.
Mathematicians would chalk it up to the properties of a decimal number system, but hey, maybe we use a decimal number system so that we should constantly remember the gematria of emes.
 

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bigsis144

Mon, Nov 05 2018, 11:44 pm
goodmorning wrote:  Oh. Thanks for clarifying; I completely missed that!
In that case, it's true that the gematria of any noun in the Torah, minus the mispar katan, is evenly divisible by 9.
But it's also true of any number in the world, even those that don't stem from a gematria of a noun in the Torah: take any number, subtract the sum of its digits and the result will be evenly divisible by 9.
Mathematicians would chalk it up to the properties of a decimal number system, but hey, maybe we use a decimal number system so that we should constantly remember the gematria of emes. 
Yes, I saw dankbar's post and couldn't help grabbing a pencil to scribble some algebra on a piece of scrap paper. Math is beautiful.
Simplifying
(10x + y)  (x + y)
(original #)  (sum of digits)
just gets 9x, which is obviously divisible by 9
Try it with a threedigit number:
(100x + 10y + z)  (x + y + z)
gets
99x + 9y
"pull out" the nine to get
9(11x + y)
which is literally a multiple of *9*
But this isn't a proof of the Torah, just that math is elegant and logical and amazing. Maybe the existence of math proves the existence of a Creator (I certainly find mathematics aweinspiring, but whether math was discovered vs. created is an old debate).
However, this has nothing to do with the wisdom or divine origin of the text of a Sefer Torah in particular.
 

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dankbar

Tue, Nov 06 2018, 12:22 am
I'll clarify. Just asked my hub. Total gematria minus misper kuton. The digits of the answer get added one to another & is always gonna add up to the sum of 9 which is gematria of emes. Let's say רחל.
200=ר
+
8=ח
+
30=ל
_______
238.
Minus misper kuton of2+8+3=13.
238 minus 13=225
2+2+5=9 emes
 

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dankbar

Tue, Nov 06 2018, 12:31 am
Same thing is why Torah starts with beis not aleph. Emes is nine & shaker is 6. If u add up every three letters...bais 2 + gimmel 3 + daled 4= 9. Next hay5+vav6+zayin7=18 (1+8=9)
Ches8 tes 9 yud 10=27 (2+7=9)
 

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dankbar

Tue, Nov 06 2018, 12:34 am
If we started Torah with Aleph it would come to 6 sheker. Aleph1 bais2 gimmel 3=6 sheker.cv. daled 4 hay 5 vav6=15 ( 1+5=6) so on so forth. Therefore Hashem started Torah with a beis to show Torah is emes.
 

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