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-> Children's Health
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amother
Mustard
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 Thu, Nov 08 2018, 5:05 pm
| amother wrote: | | I'm just curious what all of you who are sharing stories about the measles would say to parents who share their stories of vaccine injury? What if they told you that correlation does not mean causation? |
I can't understand how you are trying to flip correlation does not equal causation on the other side of this. Research shows that the measles causes lifelong difficult and even deadly outcomes.
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amother
Plum
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Thu, Nov 08 2018, 5:08 pm
| amother wrote: | | I'm just curious what all of you who are sharing stories about the measles would say to parents who share their stories of vaccine injury? What if they told you that correlation does not mean causation? |
Lets hear it. FIRSTHAND though
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southernbubby
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Thu, Nov 08 2018, 5:18 pm
| amother wrote: | | I can't understand how you are trying to flip correlation does not equal causation on the other side of this. Research shows that the measles causes lifelong difficult and even deadly outcomes. |
It can cause death and disability but most people recover.
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Mevater
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Thu, Nov 08 2018, 5:22 pm
Wouldnt most of Lakewood know what the Rosh Yeshiva has to say about this issue?
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nchr
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Thu, Nov 08 2018, 5:29 pm
| amother wrote: | | Lets hear it. FIRSTHAND though |
Correlation is a statistical technique, which tells us how strongly a pairs of variables are linearly related and change together. It does not tell us the why and the how behind the relationship, but it just says the relationship exists. Causation takes it step further than correlation. It says any change in the value of one variable will cause a change in the value of another variable, which means one variable makes other to happen. It is also referred as cause and effect.
Correlation might say: Sales of swim suits increased and sales of popsicles increased. The cause for both of these things is probably an increase in temperature; however, if you do not have that information, you may mistakenly think that the two correlated items are intrinsically related when they are not.
Another example (taken from a website): In some cases there are some hidden factors which are related on some level. Like in our example of ice cream sales and homicide rates , weather is the hidden factor which is causing both the things.Weather is actually causing the rise in ice cream sales and homicides. As in summer people usually go out, enjoy nice sunny day and chill themselves with ice creams. So when it’s sunny, wide range of people are outside and there is a wider selection of victims for predators. There is no causal relationship between the ice cream and rate of homicide, sunny weather is bringing both the factors together. And yes, ice cream sales and homicide has a causal relationship with weather.
If someone dies of an infection caused by a virus, then the virus caused the death. That is more than correlation, it is causation and it can be proven. If someone has a reaction at the same time they have a vaccine, the cause may be determined (I.e. allergy) or it may be unknown and random or it may be from something else (I.e. allergic reaction to peanut butter). You cannot say correlation does not imply causation when we have scientifically studied and proven a cause.
We have proven that vaccines do not cause learning disabilities or autism. Although those things often become noticeable and show up at the same time as children get their vaccines, it does not mean (and has been proven to not mean) that the vaccines caused that... just like ice cream does not cause murders.
This may have been confusing because I typed on my phone.
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amother
Mistyrose
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Thu, Nov 08 2018, 5:57 pm
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The supreme court ruled vaccines unavoidably unsafe. Was that not backed up by science?
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amother
Jetblack
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Thu, Nov 08 2018, 6:20 pm
| WastingTime wrote: | Jetblack there's actually nothing much to be done to treat measles. What medical treatment were you referring to?
And if doctors are wrong abt vaccinating why are they suddenly reliable when there's an emergency?? |
Complications of measles are prevented with treatment of vitamin A.
There's a difference between a sick person needing help and a healthy person being put at risk with a vaccine.
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amother
Rose
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Thu, Nov 08 2018, 8:37 pm
Guess what, the mmr vaccine can cause encephalitis too https://watermark.silverchair......O8dhY
this is one case study, who knows how many asd/adhd/ld/developmentally delayed kids are really suffering from subacute measles ecephalitis thanks to mmr... A mom of a recovered asd kid told me when he was diagnosed her kid's measles titers were sky high. His autism symptoms improved drastically when he was treated with antivirals. Her pediatrician told her he probably had measles in his gut from the shot.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....6061/
Here is another example of an infant developing measles encephalitis from the shot
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amother
Rose
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Thu, Nov 08 2018, 8:44 pm
| WastingTime wrote: | Jetblack there's actually nothing much to be done to treat measles. What medical treatment were you referring to?
And if doctors are wrong abt vaccinating why are they suddenly reliable when there's an emergency?? | There is measles igg shot, intravenous immune globulin, antivirals such as ribavirin, vit a and c protocols, hydration, steroids and other immune suppressants in case of brain inflammation, respiratory support in case of pneumonia.
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southernbubby
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Thu, Nov 08 2018, 8:45 pm
| nchr wrote: | Correlation is a statistical technique, which tells us how strongly a pairs of variables are linearly related and change together. It does not tell us the why and the how behind the relationship, but it just says the relationship exists. Causation takes it step further than correlation. It says any change in the value of one variable will cause a change in the value of another variable, which means one variable makes other to happen. It is also referred as cause and effect.
Correlation might say: Sales of swim suits increased and sales of popsicles increased. The cause for both of these things is probably an increase in temperature; however, if you do not have that information, you may mistakenly think that the two correlated items are intrinsically related when they are not.
Another example (taken from a website): In some cases there are some hidden factors which are related on some level. Like in our example of ice cream sales and homicide rates , weather is the hidden factor which is causing both the things.Weather is actually causing the rise in ice cream sales and homicides. As in summer people usually go out, enjoy nice sunny day and chill themselves with ice creams. So when it’s sunny, wide range of people are outside and there is a wider selection of victims for predators. There is no causal relationship between the ice cream and rate of homicide, sunny weather is bringing both the factors together. And yes, ice cream sales and homicide has a causal relationship with weather.
If someone dies of an infection caused by a virus, then the virus caused the death. That is more than correlation, it is causation and it can be proven. If someone has a reaction at the same time they have a vaccine, the cause may be determined (I.e. allergy) or it may be unknown and random or it may be from something else (I.e. allergic reaction to peanut butter). You cannot say correlation does not imply causation when we have scientifically studied and proven a cause.
We have proven that vaccines do not cause learning disabilities or autism. Although those things often become noticeable and show up at the same time as children get their vaccines, it does not mean (and has been proven to not mean) that the vaccines caused that... just like ice cream does not cause murders.
This may have been confusing because I typed on my phone. |
A lot of studies were done and a lot were very flawed. I don't think anything has been actually "proven" that vaccines don't cause neurological damage. Proof is as you say, the heart attack killed the patient but there is no 'negative' proof. To say that parents were interviewed about the onset of symptoms of autism and they said that the child was showing developmental issues prior to receiving the MMR does not prove that no child was ever damaged from the MMR or any other vaccine.
And I say that as someone who supports vaccines.
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southernbubby
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Thu, Nov 08 2018, 8:48 pm
| amother wrote: | | The supreme court ruled vaccines unavoidably unsafe. Was that not backed up by science? |
If you look at how some of the studies were done, and you look with a completely open mind and no confirmation bias, you might not see the "science" in the way that vaccines have been studied. For the majority they are safe but plenty of people had bad reactions.
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southernbubby
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Thu, Nov 08 2018, 8:50 pm
| amother wrote: | | I can't understand how you are trying to flip correlation does not equal causation on the other side of this. Research shows that the measles causes lifelong difficult and even deadly outcomes. |
Measles usually runs it's course but yes, it could be deadly. Vaccine skeptics didn't just get that way because of Wakefield or a few other quacks. They saw plenty of evidence that vaccines are not completely innocuous.
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nchr
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Thu, Nov 08 2018, 8:51 pm
| southernbubby wrote: | A lot of studies were done and a lot were very flawed. I don't think anything has been actually "proven" that vaccines don't cause neurological damage. Proof is as you say, the heart attack killed the patient but there is no 'negative' proof. To say that parents were interviewed about the onset of symptoms of autism and they said that the child was showing developmental issues prior to receiving the MMR does not prove that no child was ever damaged from the MMR or any other vaccine.
And I say that as someone who supports vaccines. |
Science does not know what causes autism, but they know that vaccines do not cause it. Science is also starting to discover that it may be detectable in early infancy and that autism may be several different diseases, not just one.
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amother
Jetblack
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Thu, Nov 08 2018, 11:40 pm
| nchr wrote: | | Science does not know what causes autism, but they know that vaccines do not cause it. Science is also starting to discover that it may be detectable in early infancy and that autism may be several different diseases, not just one. |
They don't know that vaccines don't cause it. You cannot prove a negative.
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amother
Khaki
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Fri, Nov 09 2018, 12:09 am
| amother wrote: | | Lets hear it. FIRSTHAND though |
Yes. I personally know a young 20-something year old girl whose mother caught measles while pregnant. She was completely healthy otherwise, and the girl was born deaf. They’ve done genetic testing; it is not genetic, and her siblings all are perfectly healthy, with perfect hearing. The doctors are sure that her condition is a result of measles. She’s a wonderful person, but ask her if life was easy as a deaf child, or as a deaf adult.
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southernbubby
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Fri, Nov 09 2018, 12:16 am
| nchr wrote: | | Science does not know what causes autism, but they know that vaccines do not cause it. Science is also starting to discover that it may be detectable in early infancy and that autism may be several different diseases, not just one. |
Autism can have a multitude of causes and so far, zero have been indentified so it could be anything, including a vaccine.
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iyar
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Fri, Nov 09 2018, 12:55 pm
| southernbubby wrote: | | Autism can have a multitude of causes and so far, zero have been indentified so it could be anything, including a vaccine. |
?
By that logic it could also be caused by Play Doh, french fries or wearing wool socks on a rainy day.
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amother
Mustard
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Fri, Nov 09 2018, 1:53 pm
| nchr wrote: | | Science does not know what causes autism, but they know that vaccines do not cause it. Science is also starting to discover that it may be detectable in early infancy and that autism may be several different diseases, not just one. |
Autism is now detectable in utero. Before a child is born, the brain is different.
https://www.npr.org/sections/h.....-womb
https://www.webmd.com/brain/au.....utism
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Chayalle
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Fri, Nov 09 2018, 2:00 pm
Interesting, because my mother said from the outset that my brother seemed different from her other children. He was child #9. In the hospital, my mother cried and told the visiting Rabbi (It was R"H and he came to blow shofar) that something was wrong with her baby.
People she told this to said he looked normal, regular....(I thought so too. He was adorable, with big blue eyes and blonde hair.) But time proved otherwise......
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southernbubby
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Fri, Nov 09 2018, 3:15 pm
Some types do start before birth but autism is an umbrella term to describe a type of behavior and not all types have the same origin.
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