No bris for gay couple’s baby after all?

amother

Indigo

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 9:46 am

amother wrote:

You are asking an excellent question on hashem. Why is he punishing people for living in a way that they really have no control over since they were born into that environment.

Are you taking the position that G-d wants us, as a commandment in the Torah, to avoid or publicly look down at them and take stands against them, as if G-d needs help in judging or punishing people, or

we should leave ALL the judging and ALL the punishing solely to Hashem, because Hashem has a way clearer picture than us, and we should be as good and nice as possible to all well intentioned people?

Ema of 5

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 9:55 am

zaq wrote:

Odd title. There was no gay couple and they didn’t have a baby. Your title makes it sound as if the ceremony was interrupted by the shooting so the Bris didn’t happen and the kid is still looking for a mohel.

I don’t mind changing the title, just give me an idea what to change it to.

amother

Mustard

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 10:04 am

amother wrote:

It certainly isn't outer place to punish others. Why are you so sure that hashems wants us to love individuals that he will be throwing into gehenim? I think it's not so clear.

Ema of 5

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 10:13 am

amother wrote:

It certainly isn't outer place to punish others. Why are you so sure that hashems wants us to love individuals that he will be throwing into gehenim? I think it's not so clear.

How do you know what will be happening after people die? How do you know they will be going to hell? I think God just wants us to love everyone, and be kind to everyone, and not judge people.

amother

Indigo

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 10:25 am

amother wrote:

It certainly isn't outer place to punish others. Why are you so sure that hashems wants us to love individuals that he will be throwing into gehenim? I think it's not so clear.

Why are you so sure Hashem will throw these people, or any specific person, into Gehenom?

1. There were three minyanim in that building, and even if they dont despise gay people, they werent gay. Gays have their own Minyanim.

2. Many think that people using the internet for any other purpose than business, are going to Gehenom. Youre clearly not one of those. What do you think of the people with that opinion?

princessleah

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 10:58 am

amother wrote:

This is not quite accurate. There are plenty of shuls that welcome members of all s-xual orientations. There is a large LGBT synagogue in Manhattan, but they don't exclusively all "have their own minyanim."

Also, there were plenty of people in that shul who are mechallel shabbat in public week to week. Everyone latches on to the gay thing because it's an easy target. It's called homophobia. Not Torah Judaism.

PinkFridge

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 11:28 am

amother wrote:

You do realize that if YOU hadnt been born to a Sabbath Observing family, or are a BT who people were Mekarev, youd be no different than these people, loving, kind, warm, good people, driving to Shul on Shabbos, etc.

This this this, 1000 times this.

Had my great grandparents and grandparents not made the courageous decision to remain shomer Shabbos, I'd be lucky if I found my way back as a BT or had Jewish grandchildren. (I myself might well be born Jewish.)

And had my other grandparents not come to America when they did, if they would have survived Hitler, they might have spent the war in Siberia or behind the Iron Curtain. Then I would be "Russian." (YKWIM by this, no offense intended at all.)

My point is, you are looking at these people as "other." I think about how easily I could have been any variation of "other". They're also called tinokos shenishbu, and our brothers and sisters.

PinkFridge

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 11:30 am

amother wrote:

I agree with everything you said. However......I don't think it's crazy to have mixed feelings when a tragedy happens to someone who hashem considers an abomination, someone who is anti Torah and anti hashem, someone who according to our belief system is burning in gehenim. We can't have it both ways. Only hashem is allowed to be disgusted with this person and throw them into the fire? Aren't we supposed to emulate god?

I do want to say, and I'm going to post this separately, that I don't think people are crazy or necessarily bad for the random thoughts they have. But I do think that we shouldn't base our reactions on such random thoughts, but think things through thoroughly.

PinkFridge

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 11:32 am

amother wrote:

It certainly isn't outer place to punish others. Why are you so sure that hashems wants us to love individuals that he will be throwing into gehenim? I think it's not so clear.

I'm not so sure I won't be waving to them at one point, assuming they're there.
Most of us will need a post-120 purification process of some sort. Who knows how long any of us are staying? I'm not conjecturing.

Mevater

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 11:51 am

princessleah wrote:

So if someone is killed while in a Shul that welcomes gays, they are R'Shaim?

That goes against the fact that more than 99% of our Gdolim called these people who died Kdoshim, people who died al Kiddush Hashem, simply because they were Jewish.

princessleah wrote:

Also, there were plenty of people in that shul who are mechallel shabbat in public week to week. Everyone latches on to the gay thing because it's an easy target. It's called homophobia. Not Torah Judaism.

So if someone is Mechalel Shabbos, they are R'Shaim and should be despised, and we shouldnt mourn their death?

That goes against the fact that more than 99% of our Gdolim called these people who died Kdoshim who died al Kiddush Hashem, simply because they were Jewish.

Mommyg8

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 12:05 pm

Mevater wrote:

Someone who dies because he or she is Jewish it is considered that they died al kiddush Hashem. It's not 99%, it's 100%. It's a fact. AFAIK, when someone dies al kiddush Hashem they go directly to the highest place in Gan Eden - at least that's what I remember learning.

Mevater

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 12:10 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Unfortunately some think differently, in contradiction to 99% of our most learned Gdolim, starting with R' Shmuel Kamenetzky, one of the greatest Poskei Hador.

Perhaps theyd like to change R' Shmuel Kamenetzky's, mind on this, who bases everything he does on the Torah.

amother

Sapphire

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 2:04 pm

eema of 3 wrote:

I want to know where are those people now, the ones who said it was a sign because the couple was gay.

I read that there indeed was a bris of two boys sons of a gay couple. Apparently several minyanim go on at the same time in the building, and the shooting was nit in the minyan of the babies.

amother

Sapphire

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 2:06 pm

eema of 3 wrote:

I don’t mind changing the title, just give me an idea what to change it to.

Don’t change it just yet there was bris going on but in a different hall in the building. Do you people really believe it was a rumor made of thin air

amother

Sapphire

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 2:07 pm

princessleah wrote:

Sorry but the truth is Hash/m hates toeivah and it’s clear in the Torah.

mommy3b2c

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 2:26 pm

amother wrote:

It certainly isn't outer place to punish others. Why are you so sure that hashems wants us to love individuals that he will be throwing into gehenim? I think it's not so clear.

How are you so sure you’re not going to gehenim? Maybe Hashem doesn’t want us to love you?

mommy3b2c

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 2:31 pm

amother wrote:

Sorry but the truth is Hash/m hates toeivah and it’s clear in the Torah.

Hashem hates toeivah, He doesn’t hate people.

Hate the sin, not the sinner.

You want ro emulate G-d? Emulate His midah of rachmanus.

princessleah

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 2:55 pm

amother wrote:

Sorry but the truth is Hash/m hates toeivah and it’s clear in the Torah.

I think I am being misunderstood.

Hashem forbids us from doing certain thing. Some are referred to as an abomination, such as certain s-xual acts. Some are forbidden, such as being mechallel Shabbat, which are punishable by stoning.

People like to pick and choose and say it's the gay couple -- who were incidentally-- not engaged in the above-mentioned abominable act IN SHUL. But Hashem wants us to keep halacha, period. It's a modern-day way of thinking to pick on gay people and not on other sins-- I.e., homophobia.

It's like when there was an argument about letting the LGBT shul march in the Israel Parade in NY. But the people objecting were not objecting to having Reform shuls march, who do not keep Shabbat, kashrut, TH, etc.

So come on.

Obviously in this scenario, everyone died al Kiddush Hashem and they were all Jewish brothers and sisters worthy of our love and now despair. But be consistent.

amother

Mustard

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 3:18 pm

eema of 3 wrote:

How do you know what will be happening after people die? How do you know they will be going to hell? I think God just wants us to love everyone, and be kind to everyone, and not judge people.

I hink that a central core belief in our religion is that the torah is true and after 120 years there will be reward for the righteous and gehenim for the wicked. A person is wicked if they violate the torah. Certainly so if hashem himself refers to the person as an abomination. This is not the same as someone who goes on the internet where some hold its muttar and others assur. Or if someone goes to Manhattan where some gedolim say this is assur.

I think we have to accept the torah. All of it. Not just the parts that are warm and cozy. As far as the question that many reshaim are that way only because they were born into that type of family where they desecrate shabbos, I have no answer. There are lots of things we don't understand about Judaism. However, if hashem cuts these people off, I don't think it's a stretch to say that we don't have to feel sorry for them. I really don't know.