No bris for gay couple’s baby after all?

Mevater

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 3:22 pm

amother wrote:

Don’t change it just yet there was bris going on but in a different hall in the building. Do you people really believe it was a rumor made of thin air

Rumors never happen?

Has someone ever passed a despicable rumor about you or people you care about?

Were there any pictures posted of a Bris there, even one, being that pictures are taken and sent all over the world, 1 2 3 these days, or have you read an article mentioning a Bris? Wouldnt there be photos in the news, of people running with a baby? You read it on some blog? Would a newspaper/website like the Forward hide or hesitate to mention a Bris going on there? Absolutely not.

I think the Torah teaches Jews to give people the benefit of the doubt.

And most importantly, I think its the Torah way, to follow what 99% of our Gdolim say. Which Gadol are people following who want to disassociate from the Kdoshim? Whose Psak is this? The two Rabbis mentioned earlier?

Ema of 5

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 3:40 pm

amother wrote:

I hink that a central core belief in our religion is that the torah is true and after 120 years there will be reward for the righteous and gehenim for the wicked. A person is wicked if they violate the torah. Certainly so if hashem himself refers to the person as an abomination. This is not the same as someone who goes on the internet where some hold its muttar and others assur. Or if someone goes to Manhattan where some gedolim say this is assur.

I think we have to accept the torah. All of it. Not just the parts that are warm and cozy. As far as the question that many reshaim are that way only because they were born into that type of family where they desecrate shabbos, I have no answer. There are lots of things we don't understand about Judaism. However, if hashem cuts these people off, I don't think it's a stretch to say that we don't have to feel sorry for them. I really don't know.

A wicked person is not just someone who violates the torah. We all, in our own way, violate the torah, becasue we are human and imperfect.
Hashem does not refer to anyone as an abomination, it is a specific act.
According to one who believes that using the internet is assur, that would make anyone who uses the internet wicked, becasue they are violating the torah. However, we can not judge. We just take care of ourselves, worry about ourselves, and don’t concern ourselves with how others will be judged.
Of course we accept the torah, I never said otherwise. We are all products of our circumstances, but we have the choice to behave any way we want.

sequoia

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 3:50 pm

amother wrote:

. Or if someone goes to Manhattan where some gedolim say this is assur.

.

What?

zaq

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 3:54 pm

amother wrote:

ys. Only hashem is allowed to be disgusted with this person and throw them into the fire? Aren't we supposed to emulate god?

No you’re supposed to emulate G-d with a capital G and a dash. Mah hu rachum, af attach rachum; mah hu chanun, af attah chanun; mah hu erech apayim , af attah... You are emulating a god, just as you spelled it—a pagan god of hatred.

And as a matter of fact, yes, in the absence of a genuine Beis Din with halachic power to judge, convict and punish wrongdoing, only Hashemi is allowed to throw sinners into the fire. You are free to be disgusted by anything you like including the color of my eyelashes but you are not free to hatemonger.

Now that we know there was no gay couple involved, why are you still spewing self-righteous vitriol ? Not that your sanctimony would have been justified if the rumor about a gay couple had been true. And even if it were appropriate to hate gay people (may you never know half such a nisayon as they do), what about all the straight people who also died? What about the police officers fighting for their lives? What was their sin? Being born into Reform congregations? So it would be ok with you if all Reform congregations would be liquidated by sudden gunfire (ch”v).

Are you so very sure that if middat hadin carried the day YOU wouldn’t be a statistic?

amother

Mustard

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 3:55 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

Hashem hates toeivah, He doesn’t hate people.

Hate the sin, not the sinner.

You want ro emulate G-d? Emulate His midah of rachmanus.

You're trying to make hashem into a nice fuzzy god. No, we believe that hashem throws people who violate the Torah into a fiery gehenim.

sequoia

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 4:01 pm

zaq wrote:

What was their sin? Being born into Reform congregations? So it would be ok with you if all Reform congregations would be liquidated by sudden gunfire (ch”v).

Conservative

mommy3b2c

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 4:04 pm

amother wrote:

You're trying to make hashem into a nice fuzzy god. No, we believe that hashem throws people who violate the Torah into a fiery gehenim.

O.M.G.

I guess I’ll see you there!

imorethanamother

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 4:06 pm

amother wrote:

You know who Hashem also can't stand? A zealot. It's true, look that up. Pinchas was the exception - why? Because he killed Zimry and Kusby in order to stave off a plague that threatened klal yisroel, thereby saving his beloved people from extermination by killing off the problem.

So all these anonymous internet warriors, with their "We don't have to feel bad for anyone who doesn't keep Torah!" and "Hashem cuts these people off!" Is all your ire toward random people simply because of your enormous love for klal yisroel, so much so that you desire to save them and love them? Doesn't seem like it. So save the zealotry for your own navel-gazing, and leave Pittsburgh out of it.

I believe it was R' Shlomo Zalman Auerbach who said that there is no such thing as a Rasha in our generations. Forgive me if it was a different Rav, but it was in a speech Rabbi Lawrence Kellerman gave over Tisha B'av. There's only tinok she'nishba. So I don't think Hashem is throwing thunderbolts at everyone you don't approve of, and I don't think any of us can even speculate who Hashem would be angry at, unless it is ourselves, and for the purpose of teshuvah.

We should all strive to have humility in our own lives, and work on loving each other more than hating each other in the name of "Torah". Moshe Rabbainu, when faced with the Golden Calf sin, didn't tell Hashem He could go ahead and cut them all off. He pled for their lives and loved them.

zaq

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 4:10 pm

sequoia wrote:

Conservative

Noch besser. So amother mustard believes people deserve to die a violent death because they don’t worship exactly the way she does. She is soul sister to Isabella of Spain among others.

Mevater

Fri, Nov 09 2018, 4:12 pm

All this is irrelevant to most of the Charedi world, who holds by R Shmuel Kaminetzky's psak.

As the Chairman of the Chofetz Chaim Heritage Foundation, this is the message that was spread. Trust me R Shmuel is a big Baki in everything Torah related.

rzab

Sat, Nov 10 2018, 2:11 pm

This is what the RCA posted on facebook this week:

"RCA Condemns Presumptuous Theological Justifications of Pittsburgh Massacre

The Rabbinical Council of America, the leading membership organization of orthodox rabbis in North America, notes that in the aftermath of the Pittsburgh tragedy there were some rabbis who promoted a hateful message claiming that the kedoshim (holy Jews) murdered in the Tree of Life synagogue died as punishment for sinful behavior.

We condemn this assertion in the strongest of terms as a gross distortion of our holy Torah's values as well as being presumptuous and insensitive. The kedoshim of Pittsburgh were murdered Al Kiddush Hashem (sanctifying God’s Name) in that they were targeted because they were Jews (See Responsa Mi-Ma’amakim 2:4).

We call upon everyone to refrain from offering theological pronouncements that are based on false assumptions and distortions. To claim to understand God’s intent when tragedy strikes is itself the ultimate Chillul Hashem (desecration of God’s Name).

May God grant our leaders the wisdom to comport ourselves with dignity and wisdom."

I didn't understand what this post was about until I saw this thread. This is terrible, how can anyone say that they know Hashem's intentions?

Rav Solovetchick used to say when a tragedy happens we should not ask "Lama?" (למה, why?) but rather "Le'mah?" (למה, for what?) We can't understand why these things happen, but our job is to figure out what we should do next, how do we proceed from here. How am I going to grow rather then pointing fingers.

amother

Sapphire

Sat, Nov 10 2018, 6:39 pm

princessleah wrote:

I think I am being misunderstood.

Hashem forbids us from doing certain thing. Some are referred to as an abomination, such as certain s-xual acts. Some are forbidden, such as being mechallel Shabbat, which are punishable by stoning.

People like to pick and choose and say it's the gay couple -- who were incidentally-- not engaged in the above-mentioned abominable act IN SHUL. But Hashem wants us to keep halacha, period. It's a modern-day way of thinking to pick on gay people and not on other sins-- I.e., homophobia.

It's like when there was an argument about letting the LGBT shul march in the Israel Parade in NY. But the people objecting were not objecting to having Reform shuls march, who do not keep Shabbat, kashrut, TH, etc.

So come on.

Obviously in this scenario, everyone died al Kiddush Hashem and they were all Jewish brothers and sisters worthy of our love and now despair. But be consistent.

So I’d just like to put forth an idea and get a perspective on how you guys can explain it. So people like us who I assume are all orthodox, don’t drive on Shabbat, eat glatt kosher, go to Mikva, etc etc and all try to do Gd’s Will our whole lives and supposedly we all do aveirot for which in shamayim after 120 you must be cleansed somehow or be punished. Reform or conservative probably don’t keep half as many mitzvotthat orthodox do, and yet if they dies for being Jews they go straight to gan eden even though they drive on Shabbat, eat unkosher, live unrestricted lives compared to orthodox. So the orthodox will have to pay for their sins while keeping much more mitzvot than reform or conservative yet the reform won’t. Explain please?

chestnut

Sat, Nov 10 2018, 7:10 pm

Really curious to hear from posters talking about Hashem's punishments:
1. Gay acts aren't the only thing called an abomination in the Torah. Are you equally disgusted with those doing other abominations?
2. How can you attribute this punishment to a gay couple's bris if nothing actually happened to that gay couple, but instead innocent ppl died?
3. What's the reason of Har Nof massacre where only orthodox ppl died? What about Mumbai? other tragedies in orthodox yeshivos or with orthodox ppl?

amother

Beige

Sat, Nov 10 2018, 7:12 pm

amother wrote:

Die al kiddush Hashem and none of your aveiros will probably count and you'll go straight to gan Eden, too.
The bottom line, imo, is we have no idea whatsoever what exactly will happen up there. Which mitzvos outweigh what. I know, it's a different and uncomfortable thought, after all those years of BY education...

amother

Mustard

Sat, Nov 10 2018, 8:56 pm

chestnut wrote:

1. I think gay's are the biggest abomination because often they are leading their entire lives that way and flaunting it. In other words we don't see people actually living their lives in direct violation of another abomination in the torah. I could be wrong. Can you think of any?

2. I think it was already established there was no gay couple in that synagogue. I'm just wondering what the proper hashkafah is with regards to how to feel about individuals who hashem detests, suffer a tragedy. To me it wasn't so obvious.

3. NOBODY knows why things happen. There are sadly many examples where horrible things happened to god fearing jews. We have know idea why.

Ema of 5

Sat, Nov 10 2018, 9:05 pm

zaq wrote:

Report of gay couple hosting bris in Tree of Life shul is false

Great :-) now how do I change it?

amother

Jetblack

Sat, Nov 10 2018, 9:18 pm

Worth reading- despite its length:

Today is Friday Rosh Chodesh Kislev 5779 and November 9, 2018

I am in pain

There is a story I head from Rav Mordechai Schwab (1911-1994) Zt”L.
One day some Jewish ruffians attacked the yeshiva bochrim in Kamenetz.
The event caused a Chilul Hashem of Jew vs. Jew in the community.
Rav Baruch Ber Leibowitz 1862 –1939, the Rosh Yeshiva, was asked to speak in the town for the expressed purpose of showing his disagreement, outrage and to clearly condemn the actions of other Jews which were not in accord with halacha and to teach people that often there are no grey areas, there is only darkness and light.
He was attempting to protest Hashem's name which was sullied.
The following Shabbos Rav Baruch Ber was quiet.
The next week again he was silent until finally two weeks passed since the incident and only them did mount the pulpit to speak about the Chilul Hashem.
When asked why did he delay speaking for almost two full weeks, he replied, “Until today my feelings were raw and I was emotionally angry and unsettled. I waited until I was calmer in order to shape my words in a calmer, cohesive and more compelling manner.”
In the footsteps of Rav Baruch Ber, I write these lines as I too waited almost two weeks to write them.
So please, indulge a person whose title is a rabbi as he attempts to share his feelings of pain, shame and perhaps even doubt.
As we all know on October 27, 2018, eleven Jews were killed in cold blood as they attempted to connect to Hashem in the only way they knew how.
They ranged in age from 54 to 97.
They were not evil people.
They were not murderers.
They were not even homosexuals.
They were the same Jewish people we all grew up with.
The same Jewish people who you meet at work or at the grocery.
They were not engaged in any salacious or licentious behavior, rather, they were involved in Jewish prayer in the only way they knew how.
If you are Baal Teshuva, they are your fathers and your mothers, sisters, and brothers.
I have not heard one allegation against them with regard to criminal or immoral behavior.
They died because they were Jews.
When I was a young boy growing up in Brooklyn if a Jew was mugged no one asked what type of Shul he davened in.
No one ever even thought about the question that his Synagogue affiliation should impact on the level of sadness or empathy we felt.
There was a time, a Jew was a Jew.
And that was good.
Now a Jew is no longer a Jew; or at least not one you have to feel any pain for.
Now you are even allowed to call a Jew your enemy, you can blame the deaths of innocent people upon the victims themselves, and you can say all this in the name of Hashem.
You can be a 97 years old woman and be blamed for your own death and the deaths of others simply because the place she chose to Daven to Hashem –was not in conformity to halacha, even though she was doing her best to connect to Hashem - based on her limited knowledge of Judaism.
There was a time when rabbis were compassionate.
There was a time when a rabbi’s love extended to all Jews without first “checking their Tzitzis”.
When I was a little boy we were told stories of how Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinski Zt”l collected money to buy Matzas for the Jewish Communists who attended the local university.
And when I was a boy, it would have been simply incredulous to believe that a rabbi would make a video and disseminate it on which he would comment without hesitation and with pride after hearing of the massacre of eleven Jews ages 54-97, “I’m not sorry for this disaster.”
If someone would have told me that I would live to see the day when a long-bearded ostensibly Torah scholar would comment on the cold-blooded murder of eleven Jews, “I’m not sorry for this disaster.”I would have told you, “that is simply impossible. No Jew, and certainly no rabbi would ever say, “I’m not sorry for this disaster.”
Alas, it has happened.
And I am sorry I am talking about it.
However, most probably you already know what I am talking about.
Outrageous comments always go viral.
And therefore in keeping with the Talmud’s teaching, “When a desecration of Hashem’s name is taking place, one should not show respect (even to) their Rebbe” (Brochus 19b) I write.
I need to share, as my heart is breaking.
I will attempt to break down this essay into parts.

Part One- The veracity of the events claimed

First of all, we must discuss the veracity of the claim made that a bris of a gay couple’s adopted son was taking place at the time of the massacre.
For ostensibly, this was the reason stated for the tragedy by the rabbi on the video.
When I was in Yeshiva we were taught to never believe second-hand sources.
We were told if the Mishna Berura quotes the Magen Avrohom, a truth-seeking Jew would himself look up the Magen Avrohom.
If someone told you a Psak in the name of Rav Moshe Zt”l, any true Ben Torah would ask, “What is the source of your information?”
And if the source was, “I heard it from someone who heard it from someone….” That Psak would be discounted and ignored.
If someone said a “Chiddush” (original thought) in the Gemara, you would respond, “What is your ra’yah (your proof)?”
The act of challenging the statement, being speculative of all claims which are unsubstantiated are the hallmarks of our people from time immemorial.
Shockingly, last week the rabbi who claimed “I’m not sorry for this disaster.”” did so by claiming he solely relying on a gay website called the advocate.com.
What is the Advocate?
“The Advocate is an American LGBT-interest magazine, printed bi-monthly and available by subscription. The Advocate brand also includes a website. Both magazine and website have an editorial focus on news, politics, opinion, and arts and entertainment of interest to lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, and transgender (LGBT) people.” (Wikipedia)
I never knew what the Advocate was.
However, on the widely disseminated video, the rabbi relates how his son said, “Abba, do you know what it says on the holy internet? It’s called Advocate.com. You know there was a Brit Milah (in the Shul in Pittsburgh).”
The rabbi then replies, “You know I have a little Ruach Kodesh….”
The son then asks his father, “Do you know who were the parents?”
The rabbi replies, “Yes, Hashem said to me, (the parents were) two men.
This is a Brit Milah in a conservative shul and the two men adopted the boy… and you wonder why there was a massacre?”
Unfortunately, these were the words were not said privately, they were said for the entire world to hear.
This “State of Union Address” has been shared over 22,000 times just on the website The Advocate!
Not to mention the tens of thousands of times it has appeared on other sites such as the Forward, YouTube, WhatsApp, and other social media mediums.
You can listen and see it for yourself.
Don’t rely on me.
Leaving aside the total outlandish and audacious comment that the rabbi claims to have Ruach HaKodesh, a very dangerous claim to make – as who knows the reason behind Hashem’s ways?
Were the Kedoshim in Har Nof guilty of some sin which we must publicize and claim “we know” why they were killed?
Claiming (especially with the audacious claim of Ruach HaKodesh) that you know why Hashem does what He does, is obviously very dangerous and too often, a very fallacious and reckless way to act.
Yet, lets put aside for the moment the incredulous claim of Hashem talking to this rabbi, nevertheless, everything he claimed as total truth was, in reality, a total fabrication and false.
Every detail of what the rabbi said is false and a sheker.
Apparently, the rabbi’s Ruach HaKodesh’s was out of kilter that day.
There was no bris that day in the Shul, not for the son of a heterosexual couple and not for the adopted son of a gay couple. It was simply a fabricated lie, promulgated solely by the website Advocate.com.
Which of course leads to another basic question:
Why is the rabbi’s son, referred to as “Rav Yehuda” perusing the internet and reading a totally inappropriate site (a site no true ben Torah would ever look at) such as the Advocate?
That is very disturbing.
Yet, there is something even more disturbing.

Part Two
Our Reaction

Based on the above questionable source which the rabbi himself quotes, namely the website, Advocate.com, and his acceptance of this truth as a truth from Sinai, there is also the problem of us.
This example of “fake news” which the rabbi claimed Hashem personally informed him of, namely that there was a bris that Shabbos of a child who was adopted by a gay male couple was not only believed by him (after all, he heard it directly from Hashem) it was accepted “hook, line and sinker” by “everyone”.
Not one Jewish-Orthodox outlet questioned the veracity of the claim of the Bris, notwithstanding the source was this LGBTQ website called the Advocate.com.
No one questioned the truthfulness of the facts and no asked anyone to bring a proof
How sad this fact is.
No one bothered to ever question the veracity of the statement notwithstanding that the source was totally unreliable and uncorroborated.
The LGBTQ internet site called the Advocate.com was the ONLY source for this “fake news” that a Bris took place in the Shul.
No other respected or unrespected media outlet reported it, not the New York Times, not The Wall Street Journal, not even the National Enquirer- no one.
And for good reason they did not report it, there was never a bris in the shul to begin with!
Even the (sometimes) anti-Orthodox newspaper the Forward stated clearly, “there was no baby naming or bris last Shabbat morning,.”
https://forward.com/news/natio.....after
So point number two: is: despite claims of Ruach HaKodesh and Hashem talking to people, the claimed event is simply false and all of us were duped by a hoax created by an LGBTQ website.

Part Three
How the Story spread
The entire fairy-tale of the Bris was disseminated by an LGBT newspaper, which the mainstream media had enough sechel and wisdom not to repeat, as it was an unsubstantiated rumor.
However, “Rav Yehuda”, the son of the rabbi, “finds” this “fake news” while looking at the Advocate.com (Rachmana L’tzlan) - and tells his father.
His father confirms the veracity of the event (which never occurred) by stating to his son, “Hashem said to me (the parents) were two men!”
I find it incredulous to believe that Hashem’s speaks to this rabbi.
But, one thing is for sure, Hashem certainly never told him that there was a bris when there wasn’t!
However disturbing the rabbi’s comments were, perhaps it is even more disturbing, that once this rabbi informed us of this “message from Hashem” none of us questioned this “fact”.
We questioned if they are still considered Kedoshim, we questioned how we should respond; however, no one questioned the possibility that the entire event was fabricated and false!
Shockingly, the rabbi, a man who is supposedly trained in analytical thinking and to always doubt a new idea unless it can be buttressed by multiple proofs, suddenly totally believes a report which only appeared in an LGBTQ website- which “stole” the information from the facebook page of an LGBTQ advocacy site without permission.
The site which the Advocate.com stole the information from is called the Delta Foundation of Pittsburgh.
I personally spoke to people at the Delta Foundation of Pittsburgh (I try to check out sources).
They informed me that they were upset that the Advocate “stole” it from them without permission and told me that since they it was only hearsay from people who were not even present at the Synagogue, they immediately deleted the”fake news” from their site.
However, that did not stop almost the entire Orthodox community from believing this “fake-news” as if it was Torah M’Sinai and debating and deliberating how to respond to this “fact”.
Not one Jewish news site (until many days later) ever questioned the veracity of the story.
What the New York Times knew was a hoax was believed by the overwhelming majority of Orthodox Jews.
We, who are supposed to skeptical and analytical, were duped by a gay website whose story was promulgated by a rabbi who claims Hashem speaks to him and a few of his like-minded cohorts.
We must Klap Al Chet!
How could we believe this Motzei Shem Ra without researching the issue to the nth degree?
Why were we so gullible to believe that which the mainstream media rejected outright?
The total unquestioning acceptance of the “Fake-New” of the Bris Milah by the Gay Couple was so widely believed - (notwithstanding, anyone could have called the rabbi of Tree of Life and asked him) that many rabbis to wrangle and debate what is the proper phraseology to classify the murdered victims.
Imagine how much time was wasted simply because an outright Sheker was promulgated and accepted at face value!
All of this was based on the acceptance of Motzei Shel Ra.
Oy, if only we would have listened to the Chofetz Chaim; so much heartache could have been avoided.
So many children would not be left questioning why Jews who were killed should not be mourned.
If people would have been a little skeptical and little less believing of the internet, this entire Chilul Hashem could have been avoided.
Alas, that was not the case. For even those who were outraged by the rabbi’s comment never questioned his authenticity.
How ironic that we who attempt to filter the bad from the good, allowed the dark side of the internet to bamboozle us into believing that which never occurred.
This is another reason for sadness.

Part Four
The Rabbi
Nevertheless, the statement made by the rabbi, “I’m not sorry for this disaster” was certainly a tremendous Chilul Hashem.
Even if the Bris did take place- which it didn’t- it was a sad day for the Jewish people when a rabbi says, “I’m not sorry for this disaster.”
How much greater is the Chilul Hashem when we realize the information he was disseminating to the world was completely false, an example of fake news and nothing more than Motzei Shem Ra.
Indeed, if not for this rabbi and his son who peruses the internet, how many of us would have ever looked at the gay website the Adocate.com.
Not only was the information wrong, if not for the rabbi, no one would have even heard about it!
Who of us ever even heard of the website Advocate.com.?
Nevertheless, excluding the rabbi’s so-called visitations from Hashem and besides the tragedy that so many well-meaning and respected Jews assumed the claim was true-
The claim that I have “Ruach HaKodesh” and I know why Hashem does what He does, is a very, very, dangerous and not-normative approach to Judaism
The danger of you saying you know for sure what Hashem does and for what reason He does it, is mind-boggling and simultaneously, very dangerous.
The Navi unequivocally declares, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways," says the Lord (Isaiah55:8).
Another reason to Klap Kal Al Chet, for claiming you know how and why Hashem acts.

Part Five
The light at the end of tunnel

Although so far we have discussed the inappropriate words of the rabbi, and the Chilull Hashem they caused, and the danger in claiming you know Hashem’s ways and His inexplicable actions; we have also questioned how the rabbi himself and most of the Orthodox world could be so naïve as to take at face value “fake-news” from The Advoate.com
These two reasons certainly created a Chillul Hashem and caused for a terribly sad day for the Jewish people.
I would like to now turn my attention to the positive and inspiring actions taken by more credible people.
Indeed, it was a bleak day for the Jewish people when a rabbi declares, “Yes, Hashem said to me, (the parents were) two men. This is a Brit Milah in a conservative shul and the two men adopted the boy… and you wonder why there was a massacre”?”
With gratitude to Hashem, not everything was black.
Thankfully, there was a glimmer of light in the midst of the darkness.
Agudas Yisroel of America led by the esteemed and venerable Rabbi Yaacov Perlow Shlita- immediately released a statement which unequivocally classified the victims as Kedoshim.
Irrespective of who or what they are.
Rabbi Perlow referenced the Rashi in Tehillim (79:2) where the passuk states: “They have given the corpses of Your servants as food to the birds of the heaven, the flesh of Your pious ones to the beasts of the earth.”
Rashi- as Rav Perlow Shlita pointed out, asks, “The flesh of Your pious ones? Were they not wicked? How can they be pious ones (Chasidim).?”
Rashi answers “But since they received their punishment, they are accounted as pious (Chasidim)”
Meaning, even if a Jew is guilty of all the three cardinal sins which were committed by the generation of the first Beis HaMikdash and caused its destruction, nevertheless, once they are punished they become “Chassidim.”
Perhaps you think that there are differing opinions?
Perhaps this is a minority opinion?
Let’s turn to our the great Torah leaders of the past generation.
Certainly, they can give us the clarity which we so desperately need.
For many years, Klal Yisroel had at its helm the great Gaon and Tzadik, a man who was never known to take a liberal or “modern” opinion of things- HaRav Elazar Menachem Man Shach ZT”l.
Take a look at what this giant of Judaism writes in his classic Michtavim U’Mamarimm (Chelek Gimmel, Siman 25), “One who is killed by the nations of the world for the sole reason that he is a Jew is to be considered as if he died Sanctifying Hashem’s name (Al Kiddush Hashem), and our sages (Chazal) said about such a person, “No person has the merit to stand in his/her presence” (Bava Basra 10)”
On page 86 of the same volume, HaRav Elazar Menachem Man Shach ZT”l refers to anyone who was killed because he was a Jew with the moniker: Kedoshim.
He does not clarify his statement by saying, “unless they were a gay couple adopting a child”.
Let’s repeat the words of the Gadol HaDor HaRav Shach Zt” L, “One who is killed by the nations of the world for the sole reason that he is a Jew is to be considered as if he died Sanctifying Hashem’s name Al Kiddush Hashem.”
Please don’t take my word.
Please get the Sefer and look it up yourself.
Don’t trust me.
Please go look it up.
I ask you, my friends, if the Agudas Yisroel of America which is guided and run by the Torah giants of our generation refers to the Pittsburgh Massacre victims as Kedoshim and Rav Shach, a man who was not known to be hasty or irresponsible with his words, also considers anyone killed because they are a Jew as a Kadosh- does anyone among us have the audacity to argue?
I have been to many Siyum HaShas celebrations, and the Kel Maleh recited always referred to the Six Million as Kedoshim. No one ever said, “except for those who were Conservative Jews or except for those who were gay.”
Perhaps, you are still not convinced…. well seeing is believing.
Below I present to you a clip of the last Kenessiah Gedolah of the World Agudas Yisroel movement which was held in Yerushalayim in 1980.
It shows the Chazzan reciting the Kel Maleh Rachamim for all those who have left this world.
The Chazzan mentions, Rabbonim, Roshei Yeshivos, Admorim and… the soldiers of the Israeli Defence Forces who gave their life for the Jewish people.
See with your own eyes who is standing with reverence and intense emotion:
HaRav Elazar Menachem Man Shach ZT”l, who gave the opening address;
The Gerrer Rebbe – The Lev Simcha Zt”L:
HaRav Moshe Feinstein Zt”l;
HaRav Yaakov Kaminetzsky Zt”l;
HaRav Yaakov Ruderman Zt”l;
HaRav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach Zt”l;
The Vischntzer Rebbe Zt”l;
The Slonimer Rebbe ZtL
The Biala Rebbe Zt”l.
I have no doubt that many of the soldiers of the IDF had (unfortunately) never entered a Shul of any kind their entire lives. Nevertheless, all of these true giants of Judaism were present and stood reverently as the Chazzan said, “In Gan Eden shall they (The IDF soldiers) rest.”
Are these not the great Torah leaders we should follow?
Are these Torah leaders any lest distressed by the above-mentioned rabbi, that so many Jewish soldiers do not observe Torah properly?
Of course, they do, however, they understand the concept of Tinuk SehNishba ( a child captured at a young age and has no exposure to pure Jewish learning ) who shall not be considered a sinner.
Here is a link to the clip- the soldiers are mentioned at the very end. https://www.kikar.co.il/abroad/199007.html

Part Six
The complete picture of how the venom gets out thee
Or perhaps better entitled, who is really utilizing the internet to spread hate?

However, what is equally disturbing is not just the ridiculousness of supposedly responsible people believing in the fake news as if it was Torah M’Sinai; rather, it’s the fact that the very medium which these “radical rabbis” condemn – namely the internet -is precisely their preferred choice of medium to disseminate their hatred and their vile “fake news”.
Without the power of the internet, these demagogic figures would be powerless.
How ironic is that the very thing they demonize is their weapon of choice to spread their hate.
The audacity of the rabbi as he announces, (before he tells us Hashem revealed to him “fake news”) that he is delivering “ A State of the Union” address is mind-boggling, yet, reveals to us that he is totally cognizant that he is speaking to the entire world via the cursed internet.
He and other demagogues who spread Sinas Chinam with an intensity never before seen, utilize that which is often the very target of their wrath-the internet- as their weapon of choice to spread their hate-filled messages.
Without the internet, without WhatsApp, without email, and without Facebook, which these speakers are very adept in utilizing, these so-called “scholars” would be relegated to the dustbin of rabbinic opinion.
How ironic it is that the very people who demonize the internet, totally rely on it to spread their hate-filled rhetoric?
And who are their most unsuspecting victims?
Our children.
I spoke to the principles of some major high schools and they all told me that the hate message spread like wildfire among the high-school students, boys, and girls.
What type of respect can we expect our young people to have for rabbinic leadership if messages such as these go viral?
These demagogic, rabble-rousing, hate mongers seem to compete with each as to who can say the most outrageous comment.
They play “can you top this” with regard to who will win “the most brazen and disgraceful comment of the week award.”
This is a total imitation of the secular media where (as quoted in NY Times), “Outrage often starts as shock, disbelief, surprise. Then comes the moment of indignation, when the injustice strikes you not only as unfair but also as having crossed a new boundary, reached some new low.”
So too, these seditious speakers spread their venomous messages over the putrid portals of the internet and vie with each other for saying the most shocking and scurrilous smut.

Part Seven
Conclusion and Lessons to be learned

So what is the answer?
The answer is to follow our true Gedolim.
To avoid watching and listening to the vile messages of hate.
We must stop forwarding these messages when we receive them and if necessary block the sender.
Most importantly, we must listen to our genuine and bona fide Gedolei Yisroel.
You can start right now.
There is a great Jew in Far Rockaway named Rav Yaakov Bender Shlita.
He is a person who is worthy to listen to and to emulate.
I will not say a word more.
You will make your own decision.
I just ask you to watch the two videos which are attached.
Please watch them in the order they are posted.
After watching them, ask yourself, who do you want to follow?
The rabbi who claims Hashem tells him “fake news” or Rav Yaakov Bender Shlita?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4iLk8R3054
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzY0RVJOysg
I think the decision is clear.
May Hashem have rachmanus (mercy) on all of us.
Especially let us daven for the rabbi who thinks he has Ruach HaKodesh that Hashem should truly show him the light.
Or better yet, let us daven that he should be privileged to be influenced and learn Torah from Rav Yaakov Bender Shlita.
Thank you for allowing me to share.
With love, pain, and tears…..

“If Not Now, Then When?”- Hillel
Ron Yitzchok Eisenman, Rabbi, Congregation Ahavas Israel, Passaic,

PinkFridge

Sat, Nov 10 2018, 9:28 pm

amother wrote:

You're trying to make hashem into a nice fuzzy god. No, we believe that hashem throws people who violate the Torah into a fiery gehenim.

But not permanently.
And what exactly is gehenem about, anyway?

PinkFridge

Sat, Nov 10 2018, 9:30 pm

amother wrote:

You want to ask that about the Holocaust too?

chestnut

Sat, Nov 10 2018, 9:44 pm

amother wrote:

1. Iirc, eating non kosher and cheating in business are called abominations, too. Don't recall as much talking about their going against the Torah, as there's about gays
2 and 3 - so when it's about orthodox ppl suffer, we don't know why, but when gay ppl suffer, it's definitely cause Hashem defeats them? It makes sense to you?