How I Wish My Doctor Would Have Presented Vaccination

amother

Bisque

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 10:35 am

amother wrote:

Hi Mrs. Ploni!

Your son is now approaching the age where we generally start giving vaccinations.

As you know, vaccination involves injecting a small amount of the disease, usually inactivated, along with some adjuvants - which are chemicals which stimulate the body’s immune response, and a minuscule amount of preservatives to keep the injection stable.

To be honest, medical science does not yet fully understand how this process works, but vaccinating drastically reduces chances of children getting a wide range of diseases.

Vaccinations are each introduced to fight a specific disease that we know contains serious risks. They can be fast-tracked into production, because unless the side effects are very common and very serious, they are usually a smaller risk than the disease itself. Later, the formulas are often fine-tuned to make them safer. For example, the original polio vaccine contained the live virus, which actually gave some children polio. The newer vaccines do not contain any live poliovirus, and are safer, even though they are a drop less effective.

You should be aware that more research efforts go into coming up with new vaccines against more diseases than into researching how to make current vaccines safer.

We can do our part in pushing for safer vaccines by reporting any side effects to VAERS, which is a database of vaccine reactions. Either we can do this at the office, or you can report yourself online.

We can also follow extra precautions to minimize side effects, in the timing and frequency we actually administer the vaccinations.

It is important to note that each vaccine comes with its own risk/benefit ratio in proportion to the disease it presents. Some vaccines need a series of shots to get sufficient immunity rates, some need boosters after a few years because the immunity can wear off, others are not successful for 25% or more of people who get the shots.

Overall, vaccines are considered safe, but there is no medication in the world that has no side effects, and vaccines are not an exception. For most people the effects are unnoticeable or very minor, but occasionally a person will have a severe reaction which in rare cases can lead to long-term health issues.

In respect to the practice of responsible medicine, I prefer to take a more cautious attitude to vaccination. This involves spacing out vaccinations more, and evaluating more regularly for side effects that would indicate that a child is not handling the vaccines well.

However, this approach can only work when a parent is on board. It requires a bigger time investment from parents, including more frequent visits to the doctor. These would not be full appointments, as any nurse in the practice could administer the vaccines once they are ordered. Still, it is a commitment on your part.

Since vaccinations are, as we mentioned, overall safe, if you can’t commit to more frequent trips to the doctor to space out the shots, the most logical decision would be to just go with the CDC recommended vaccine schedule.

If you ARE willing and able to make the commitment, we will follow a modified schedule, spacing out vaccines about 2 months apart each, preferring separate over combined vaccines, and evaluating each vaccine individually.

If not, we will still do our best to vaccinate responsibly, and make decisions out of abundance of caution. We will do this by preferring single-dose vials which contain fewer preservatives, and reporting all side effects to VAERS, ensuring that researchers know of any problems with the existing formulas.

Of course, as always, you are the parent and we will respect your decisions, even if we disagree. I hope, however, that we can discuss your concerns and come to conclusions that we both feel good about.

What do you think?

—

In respect to the measles vaccine: Unfortunately, in the USA today there is no option to separate the measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines. Although each of them have their own sets of risks and benefits, let’s focus on the measles portion of the vaccine, since for most this is the make-it-or-break-it of this decision.

Of course all sicknesses are miserable, but that is not a good enough reason to take a health risk.

Measles was once considered a “standard” childhood disease, similar to chicken pox. Still, the mortality rates are significantly higher than with chicken pox, about 2 out of 10,000 in otherwise healthy children. This is a low rate, but still not negligible. More importantly, measles is extremely contagious, and has a long incubation period where you don’t know that you are sick, but can still pass on the virus to others.

Although there are some bigger safety concerns with the MMR over some other vaccines, this vaccine is extremely effective, providing full and lasting immunity to over 95% of people getting the shot.

I therefore recommend the measles vaccine to anyone without a history of negative vaccine reactions.

If you would not get the vaccine, you should be aware of the alternative methods of treatment, which may reduce the chances of significant complications, and be prepared to self-quarantine for up to 2 weeks in the case of an outbreak to prevent it from spreading.

If you did suspect that you were exposed, I would recommend the measles immunoglobulin, which does not necessarily provide lifetime protection, but would prevent you from getting the measles immediately.

—

About the varicella vaccine:

You probably remember chicken pox, also known as varicella, from when you were a child. Of course, it is not a pleasant thing to have. You probably do not remember people dying from it, although it did happen. Of course, chicken pox, as any other disease, can be very serious for someone who is immunocompromised, like L”A a cancer patient.

The varicella vaccine is not always so effective, and immunity tends to wear off. This raises some concerns, as chicken pox is far more serious as an adult. Getting the actual disease confers lifetime immunity.

Because of this, some elect to postpone the vaccine until age 10 or 11, and if the child has not yet had natural chicken pox, vaccinate then.

If you do choose to get the shot, be sure to stay away from immunocompromised people for the first few days, because some get chicken pox or shingles FROM the vaccine, and you can shed the virus for several days.

—

In regards to DTaP:

This is another vaccine that is not available separately. Since the pertussis component is the most significant of that shot, let’s focus on that disease.

Pertussis, also known as whooping cough, is a disease that is a big deal for most people who get it. Whooping cough causes coughing fits, often ending with a characteristic “whoop” as the person fights to catch their breath. The cough can last for weeks or months, and can cause a whoop-like cough for every minor cold for up to a year. It is far more dangerous in infants, causing pneumonia in a significant number of cases.

Alternative treatments do exist, but are not simple. One noted pediatrician requires 24-hour rocking of an infant with pertussis, to prevent mucus from settling in the lungs and causing pneumonia, along with heavy doses of vitamin C, which can be hard to give to infants and children.

---

Etc.

CONTEXT: I was originally a status-quo vaxxer, became anti-vax, and am now a conservative vaxer.

I wouldn't have wanted him to say all that you wrote because it's not all medically sound.

tigerwife

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 10:51 am

Why do you write that even medical science doesn’t fully understand how it works? This is something pretty basic that you learn in HS Bio.

nchr

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 11:27 am

Should he also present information regarding antibiotics in the same light? Come on....

crust

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 11:34 am

tigerwife wrote:

Why do you write that even medical science doesn’t fully understand how it works? This is something pretty basic that you learn in HS Bio.

And lets say OPs schoold didn't teach it. How would she know it?

Even if she did learn it in school there is so much misleading information out there that needs to be debunked.

Chayala, I dont think its lack of funding that prevents doctors from doing it.
What happened to our creativity? We have askanim and organizations for everything. Why is this issue less important?

And by the way there are funds for illness prevention. I believe this is important enough to be covered by it.

To the poster saying no intern would do it and we dont want any 18 year old doing it... there are enough educated middle aged nurses that would do it for the right price.

anonymrs

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 11:54 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Can you elaborate the bolded? Thanks.

There is research from the NIH showing that 200,000 mg of vitamin a in the palmitate form given 2 days in a row helped kids with the measles recover.

FranticFrummie

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 12:41 pm

Every time DD or myself have been given a vaccine, I first have to read a page of information on the benefits and risks involved, and sign at the bottom. My doctor's office has these forms available in several languages. I never felt like I was getting one sided information, or too little information.

amother

Crimson

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 12:41 pm

side effects of measles can include deafness and/or sterility

sequoia

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 12:41 pm

Sterility is mumps, no?

amother

Brunette

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 12:46 pm

crust wrote:

Right drs today are not getting paid enough to pay that right price. I know people will bash that but it’s true. I saw how much my well visit was covered. It’s nothing. For sure not enough to pay a nurse to spend extra 10 minutes with me. We fight for cheaper health insurance but it comes at a cost.

If a nurse wants $40 an hour + benefits that means 10 minutes talking to patients and 5 minutes reviewing charts and moving between rooms. So that means an extra $15 per patient. The dr is not getting much to start.

Our communities are strapped for cash. Teachers sometimes don’t get paid for months. I really don’t see people paying extra or donations do this. How much would you personally donate? It’s nice to be altruistic but you have to be practical.

amother

Crimson

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 12:47 pm

measles and mumps can -- typically male sterility rather than female due to inflammation of private parts

oneofakind

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 1:05 pm

My doctor had enough time to tell me this about the hep B before it became mandatory "Give it to your (infant)son because he may want to be a doctor or join Hatzalah". Are you all laughing?
I said "With all due respect, I have different plans than for him to be a doctor". and never gave them.
PS. He's quite learning disabled (not due to vaccines but the massive ear infections he got from them didn't help his speech development) and will be neither.

If they have no time to explain benefit and risks, they have no business being in the business. I haven't seen any doctors getting Tomchei Shabbos, have you? They're wives don't work unless they want to. I meet them at excercise classes, shiurim, events, art classes etc. They live in nice houses and take nice vacations. Some do a lot of chesed which is nice but I don't cry for their financial situation at all.

nchr

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 1:09 pm

oneofakind wrote:

Honestly, doctors do not make that much money and many cannot afford to go on nice vacations and have wives who work.

oneofakind

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 1:13 pm

Tell them to move to Lakewood. The ones here do very nicely.

amother

Brunette

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 1:15 pm

oneofakind wrote:

Tell them to move to Lakewood. The ones here do very nicely.

.

They really don’t. I know some personally- I live in Lakewood. One big doctor just convinced a new pediatrician In Our family not to practice in Lakewood. Everyone is on Medicaid and it chokes them.

southernbubby

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 1:15 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

I have seen that information sheet on vaccines given out at pharmacies or the health department but not in the doctor's office or hospital.

I have had doctors try to railroad drugs and treatments and soft petal the side effects for drugs such as chemo for cancer and Prolia which is a drug for osteoporosis known to have numerous severe side effects.

Basically, the vaccine system is not set up to give people choices. The anti-vaxers would get farther in representing the claims of those who feel that they were harmed by vaccines if they stayed away from quoting quack doctors as some of these slick glossy anti-vaccine publications have done. Just stick to the facts and let people make their choice.

They won't get more people to vaccinate if they put too much emphasis on the possible side effects so they try not to even mention them but by sweeping it under the rug, and then everyone knows someone who had a bad reaction, they are failing to address the public's fears.

Now there are teacher walkouts if the schools admit people who don't vaccinate due to choice. I hope that they keep in mind that the flu can also be dangerous to pregnant women but there is no doubt that measles is a threat if the woman's titers are too low. I see lots of animosity forming in close knit communities over this issue.

amother

Firebrick

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 1:29 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Falling back to your earlier thread, I think mutual respect is what should be promoted. The two sides to this issue are the ones preferring to gain immunity via vaccines and the ones preferring to gain immunity via the natural way. So let each get their way without imposing on the others. The vaccinated community will understand and respect the anti-vaxxers preference to let their children come down with the disease, BUT the anti-vaxxers must equally respect the right of the other parents who do NOT want the children to come down with the disease.

If that means anti-vaxxers must keep their children isolated when there is a high possibility they are carriers of a virus, then they must do so. Otherwise, they're imposing their preference onto the rest of the society, and causing some children to contract the disease when those parents do NOT want them to. They get to choose for their own children, they do NOT get to choose for someone else's children. If the anti-vaxxers children have already developed antibodies by contracting a specific disease, let them check their titers and show proof of natural immunity and they'll be welcomed among everyone. Otherwise, during a breakout, they should only be mingling with those of like mind.

Can an anti-vaxxer explain why they feel they have the right to force their 'natural immunity' method onto others? I don't want my child to contract measles, don't I have the same equal right as you to protect my child?

southernbubby

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 1:37 pm

amother wrote:

100%, but now the schools don't just want to exclude students for the duration of the epidemic, they want to exclude them forever! I know of a family who has had students in the school for close to quarter of a century but because they are not vaccinate, they are being asked to stop sending their children permanently.

amother

Firebrick

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 1:45 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Well, if these parents are not willing to work with others, and threaten and make demands to get their way on the account of others, I totally see their point. Why would you want a repeat of this, when other outbreaks occur? The schools are protecting themselves as well.

Bottom line is that these anti-vaxxers don't want to live with the consequences of their choices. It's very simple - the choices are as follows:

Vaccinate - and your kids have no limitations.
Don't vaccinate - but during outbreaks you must isolate your child to prevent the spread of disease.

The antivaxxers want it both ways - not to vaccinate and not to have limitations.

And that's the essence of the problem. If they'd just be willing to follow the guidelines and keep their children home when it's required, and stop threatening the schools, the schools wouldn't be clamping down like this.

amother

Black

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 1:49 pm

amother wrote:

Falling back to your earlier thread,
SNIP

Can an anti-vaxxer explain why they feel they have the right to force their 'natural immunity' method onto others? I don't want my child to contract measles, don't I have the same equal right as you to protect my child?

The idea is that if YOUR child IS vaccinated, she should be protected, so what are you afraid of?

amother

Firebrick

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 1:53 pm

amother wrote:

The idea is that if YOUR child IS vaccinated, she should be protected, so what are you afraid of?

Because my babies at home haven't reached the age of vaccination, or my ill father is at a very vulnerable stage right now. A vaccinated child can still be a carrier and bring it home.

Why must my baby come down with measles, just because you prefer your child acquire natural immunity and the consequential guidelines are a little bit tough for you?? Please allow me the same consideration to choose what's best for my baby, just like you're asking everyone to give you that same right!

Or is it only you who deserves the right to choose what's best for your child??