Dibros versus mitzvos

amother

Ginger

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 1:13 pm

I was in conversation with a group of people (mostly gentiles, and some totally secular yidden)

One of the secular yidden said there are 613 do's and don'ts. She turned to me (as she knows I'm a practicing yid) and asked what is it called in Hebrew. I said it's the 613 mitzvos. She said "no, the ten commandments are the mitzvos, this is something else".

I didn't know what she meant and since this wasn't essential to the conversation neither one of us pursued this tangent.

But I'm curious. She's a learned woman, has studied, or even majored in, theology. What could she have been referring to?

I've been thinking about it since then. We have "aseres hadibros" , which literally translates into "ten of the words". Yes? No?

Then we have taryag "mitzvos" which is generally translated as commandments.

Now I can't remember what was the question I was bringing to the table here...... something about dibros versus mitzvos.

She said the 613 are do's and don'ts, and the 10 are the mitzvos.

dankbar

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 1:25 pm

By har sinai the yidden were given aseres hadibros the ten most important ones. Then later they learned all the other mitzvos.

zaq

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 4:32 pm

I think she’s confused. Mitzvot are quite literally commandments, root is tzadeh , vav heh, which means “to command”. Dibrot means “words”,”speeches” or “sayings” because they were spoken directly in the hearing of Bnei Yisrael. Rashi says that all ten were spoken at once yet understood individually.
Aseret hadibrot means the Ten Things That were Spoken. Everything else was told to Moshe who passed them along to the people. The Big Ten were spoken to everyone directly.

Mitzvot are classified in various ways:
Mitzvot asseh, positive commandments
Mitzvot lo taaseh , aka “lav-im “, or negative commandments
Edot, testimonies or precepts
Chukim, or inexplicable, nonintuitive commandments for which no reason is offered, translated as “statutes” but does not necessarily correspond to the American legal term
Mishpatim, “justices”, or “ordinances”, civil and criminal laws that generally jive with human logic.
Then there are mitzvot bein adam laMakom and mitzvot bein adam lachavero.
There are probably more classifications I haven’t thought of.

The Dibrot are a subset of the mitzvot. They are also dos and donts, more don’t than do, with some elaboration and explanation. Anochi sounds like an introductory statement but it’s a commandment: Believe this. Know this.

I wonder if your friend is confusing mitzvah, meaning commandment, with the colloquial use of “mitzvah” as “ a good deed”. Go visit Grandma, it’s a mitzvah. Bring a bottle of schnapps to Shul on a yahrzeit, it’s a mitzvah. Smile at the bus driver, it’s a mitzvah.

Or maybe she thinks the Big Ten are the universal laws that apply to the whole world and everything else applies only to the Jewish nation? Then she’s confusing it with The Seven Noahide Laws, which are incumbent upon all humankind. There’s a lot of overlap, though. Both sets forbid murder, idolatry, adultery and incest, and theft (though the “theft” in the Big Ten refers to kidnapping)

The ten are part of the 613. You could, if you wanted to, imagine them as the main subject headings in the Complete Body of Jewish Law, with each one representing all the other laws in its class. As in “Listen up, these are My laws. I’m giving you a little taste so you have an idea what we’re talking about. Later we’ll get into the nitty gritty of it all.”

Anochi—Basics of the faith and how to worship G-d
Lo yihyeh—laws related to idolatry and idolaters
Lo Tissa—How to show respect for G-d and not commit sacrilege
Zachor veshamor—laws of Shabbat and festivals
Kabed—laws of family and social relationships
Lo tirtzach—capital crimes
Lo tin’af—marriage and s@xual relations
Lo ta’aneh —everything dealing with courts
Lo tignov—personal rights (this lo tignov refers to kidnapping, not property)
Lo tachmod—property rights, agricultural laws

After all, Shamor et yom hashabbat doesn’t really tell you very much. How do I keep it? By marking a calendar? By baking a cake and inviting my friends to eat it? By singing and dancing and playing music?

Maybe your friend is confused because Asseret hadibrot is translated as Ten Commandments, and the word Dibrot doesn’t mean commandments.

etky

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 4:44 pm

dankbar wrote:

By har sinai the yidden were given aseres hadibros the ten most important ones. Then later they learned all the other mitzvos.

It's not universally accepted that these are the ten 'most important' mitzvot.
In fact, the Rambam was adamantly opposed to this approach and thus ruled against the popular custom of standing while they are read aloud in shul - to avoid giving credence to this conception.

Seas

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 9:14 pm

Your friend is an ignoramous. Big surprise.

amother

Ginger

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 5:05 am

Seas wrote:

Your friend is an ignoramous. Big surprise.

What would you say if you were there, to clarify the issue?

zaq

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 2:55 pm

Seas, what a charming way you have of expressing your opinion. Do you have any friends IRL? Maybe you save your venom for virtual society. Did you intend to insult just the friend, or OP as well? Because your post implies that of course the friend is ignorant, after all she’s OP’s friend.

It’s not necessary to say the woman is an ignoramus. You could say she’s confused. It would make it clear that she’s wrong without being obnoxious. I’m reporting your post.

BTW, the word is “ignoramus” not “ignoramous”.

Seas

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 3:02 pm

zaq wrote:

I'm really getting tired of do-gooders with inflated egos misunderstanding me and taking offense where none was intended.

The friend is an ignoramus and it's no surprise because she is secular. Got it?

Seas

Mon, Nov 12 2018, 3:07 pm

amother wrote:

What would you say if you were there, to clarify the issue?

There are 613 mitzvos, of which 248 are positive mitzvos and 365 are negative ones.

The aseres hadibros - popularly translated as "10 commandments", though sayings or utterances might perhaps be more literally accurate - are headlines that were given on Mt. Sinai.

According to our sages they encapsulate all the 613 mitzvos. So onochi is an umbrella mitzvah for all dinim of emunah. Lo yiyeh for all dinim of idol worship. Shabbos includes yomim tovim and shmitta. And so on.