Please be honest about seminary.

amother

Gold

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 5:17 pm

Tis the season. Please help me/us figure this out.

Why did you REALLY send your daughter?

Was it because of peer pressure? Did she beg, plead and cry? Were all her friends going? Did her principal talk you into it?

Did she need more independence? A life changing experience? Time away for herself?

Did you want her to grow spiritually? Be introduced to broader spiritual ideals? Gain more than your home was able to offer her?

Was shidduchim a bigger reason than you'd care to publicly admit? Would you say no to a girl who stayed home for your wonderful son?

And mostly, how in heavens name were you able to afford it? Was it worth the expense?

TIA.

amother

Dodgerblue

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 5:40 pm

I'm going to answer as a daughter, not as a mother who sent her daughter.

I was brought up with the idea that I was not going to go to seminary. No way, no how. My mother didn't believe in it hashkafically and could not afford it. I never even wanted to go to seminary.

Fast forward to 12th grade, and I saw all my friends applying. I was really scared to go straight from high school into a public college. I didn't want to miss out on the experiences my friends were going to have. But I knew my parents couldn't afford it.

This is where I capitalized on all those years of having worked hard to get top grades. I spoke to my principal and told him that my parents couldn't afford seminary, and I would be going to a public college the following year unless I could somehow get a scholarship to seminary. He didn't want to see me in public college, and was able to convince the seminary to give me a significant scholarship. At that point, despite her hashkafic objections to seminary, my mother couldn't say no.

amother

Ginger

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 6:01 pm

amother wrote:

Are you talking about seminary in Israel?
Was it only seminary in Israel vs. public college? Was a local seminary not an option?

PinkFridge

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 6:28 pm

I think girls benefit from ongoing learning after high school. There are great options in some US cities and not in others that don't involve full time commitment, e.g. night classes with a feeling of camaraderie for the girls.

I think that seminary itself is great. It doesn't have to be in E"Y, though the E"Y experience is incredible.

There are actually some parents who found (I say found because I'm not in the parsha and have no idea what the current sticker price is now) that seminary in E"Y was cheaper than chu"l if they didn't qualify for government aid because
- they still qualified for MASA, and local Federation grants (this is an OOT thing)
- they chose the cheapest options
- the seminaries may have given them further discounts.

amother

Aubergine

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 6:35 pm

Peer pressure was part of it. She didn't want to miss out. However, we would not have sent her if we didn't feel the experience would be worthwhile.

Our daughter finished high school totally frazzled. We felt she would benefit from a year off before launching into a demanding course of study in college. She welcomed the opportunity to continue her Judaic studies in a less-academic setting, experience Israel and have ten months of adventures. Not vacation exactly, but a chance to recharge and mature.

She got whatever scholarships were available. Seminary was a little more than high school but not by much, and less than college. We are fortunate to be able to afford it. Yes, it was worth it, but if money were tight we would have found other ways to meet her need for a break before college.

I can honestly say that shidduchim never entered my mind, and her high school didn't push.

amother

Slategray

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 6:52 pm

Answering as a daughter:

My parents not-so-secretly wanted me to make Aliyah and that was a big factor in why they sent me. I was a terrible student and they even said if I just wanted to travel and hang out in Israel for a year they’d help me work something out. At the very least they wanted me to develop a love and appreciation of Eretz Yisrael. They also encouraged me to date when I was there.

For my part I wanted to go to seminary in order to find my place in the Torah world. I soaked up the influence of the role models I met in seminary even though I still wasn’t a great student. I intentionally did not date (I kept telling my parents I just didn’t meet anyone interesting yet, but the truth was that I rarely went out in mixed groups altogether). I worked very hard on personal development when I was there. I asked all my questions I’d been stockpiling for years. I came to terms with what I believed was the right way to live even though it would require difficult changes. My parents did not know my true motivations for going, and they still don’t.

It worked out for me. The point is though, it’s really important to know why your DAUGHTER wants to go. Once you know what she’s looking for it’ll be easier to figure out where to send, if to send, etc. Maybe there are other options that could still meet the criteria of what she wants. For example a shorter travel program in Israel or a full length seminary program locally (where you live).

thunderstorm

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 7:43 pm

Answering as a daughter - I was a good student and very idealistic and wanted to keep growing spiritually. I was also living in a dysfunctional home and wanted some sanity. However, HaShem wanted differently. Because I was rejected by ALL seminaries I applied to. It didn't matter whether it was Israel or England, for an inexplicable reason they didn't want me.
I ended up going to Bais Yaakov Intensive Seminary in Brooklyn which to me was just another year of highschool, even the same building and many of the same teachers. I hated every minute of it. I ended up being the first in my sem class to get engaged and I dropped out and got myself a job. I was married before the sem year was over. So, I had plans and plans of studying for a few years overseas , but HaShem wanted differently .

amother

Dodgerblue

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 8:16 pm

amother wrote:

Are you talking about seminary in Israel?
Was it only seminary in Israel vs. public college? Was a local seminary not an option?

Yep. I wasn't going to waste my time on a local seminary. There is nothing that I gained in seminary in E'Y that I would have gained from seminary here.

What I gained in E'Y was completely unrelated to academic learning. I think G-d orchestrated events so I wouldn't end up in an academic seminary and would able to focus on emotional growth. Had I gone to BJJ, which is where most of my teachers and classmates assumed I'd go, I would have been focused on the academics and would not have gained what I did.

B'H because I went to a less academic seminary, where I easily did very well academically, I was able to focus on growing in other areas of my life. I learned so much about life, about myself, and about interacting with people. I met mentors and dealt with issues in my life that hadn't been addressed before. I found support that I desperately needed.

I also learned a lot of independence and assertiveness in Israel. I learned how to take initiative for things that I needed or felt were important.

dancingqueen

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 8:44 pm

amother wrote:

What are the hashkafic objections to seminary?

amother

Seagreen

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 8:50 pm

Posting as someone who works with a lot of post-seminary young women in a professional capacity: the more young women I speak to and advise, the more I think the sem industry is a total waste. These students come back so thoroughly soaked in the kool-aid that there is just one way to be (surprise, surprise, it’s the way the teachers at their seminary live, and I see this regardless of the hashkafa of the sem) and in such an unrealistic state of spiritual fervor (when else do you basically take a 10-12 month vacation from life and responsibilities to learn, travel, and basically hang out), that anything else seems like a letdown. Sem is not real life, and while I think some students may really benefit, I think the vast majority go because it’s the “done thing,” because of shidduchim, because of peer pressure, etc. It’s ridiculous that parents spend massive amounts of money (that they often don’t have) to provide entitled children with a year-long vacation and pad the pockets of people who often convince the students that the very people paying for this education aren’t frum enough.

amother

Dodgerblue

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 9:01 pm

amother wrote:

I don't disagree with you. I wish there was a way for me to have gained emotionally without going through the whole Kool-Aid business. Personally, it worked out well for me B'H, but I see many girls who drink the Kool-Aid, get married to a long-term learner, have a million kids, and are miserable.

amother

Slategray

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 9:06 pm

amother wrote:

That's really sad that that's so many people's experience. I'll admit I lived in a very small bubble (self-chosen) when I was in seminary, and that I totally did not have the average experience. I was grappling with a lot of stuff, religious and personal, etc. and didn't spend much time socializing (that was one of my regrets when the year ended), but it was such an important, life-building experience for me. I would not be who I am or where I am without it. Maybe it depends on the school. My seminary closed down several years ago but it was one of the most inspiring places I ever experienced. It's sad to me to think that (from my understanding) they were ultimately hurt by prioritizing the best interest of their students over their own reputation. A very special place run by very special people. The girls were from all different backgrounds. We were taught to respect our parents 100% and I remember at the end of the year we had a class dedicated to how to approach differences in observance when we go home (for girls who would encounter that issue) and how to handle it respectfully - genuinely respectfully and not just paying lip service to it.

It is very sad to me to hear that people go to sem just to check it off their list. It shouldn't be that way. I don't think it's a necessary step for everybody, but for the ones who genuinely want it, I would hope they're there for the right reasons.

amother

Pink

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 9:10 pm

Answering as a daughter also. I only went cuz it is what is done. My sisters went to sem so I had to. I didnt want to and didn't enjoy myself. as a poster above said, there's a lot of kool aid passed around. I live the kool aid life now, not for myself but my parents.

But please don't let my experience (or others like mine) cause you and your dd to make a decision. take into account her as a person. listen to her. ask her questions and let her know its ok for her to honestly answer them cuz it'll be a waste of time and money to send a girl who doesn't wanna go to sem and can cause all sorts of problems. but on the otherhand she may be a girl who does wanna go and sem would be a very positive thing.

amother

Seashell

Sun, Nov 11 2018, 9:25 pm

I went for the E"Y experience and my parents got such a steep discount that it was worth it for them. My mother also went and has fond memories of that time.
My neighbor never thought she'd consider sending her daughters. She wasn't so comfortable with it hashkafa wise and they are in klei kodesh and don't have a lot of money. But she is considering it now because she feels her daughter deserves/needs a break. She studied hard during school and had top marks. She is the oldest girl in a large family with mostly boys and while the mother tried not to burden her and divides the chores equally between both genders, the boys are barely home, and she is by nature a very nurturing girl and is kind of a second mother. My neighbor feels she deserves a year to herself to relax before college, work and shidduchim.