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-> Chinuch, Education & Schooling
dancingqueen
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Tue, Nov 13 2018, 1:48 pm
amother wrote: | Can you name which seminaries have a more open-minded view? Because I'm interested for my daughter. |
I’m more familiar with MO seminaries but I know there are some RW MO seminaries, like michlala and darchei bina that have some yeshivish girls. I didn’t go to those but could find out more if you want.
Coming from an MO background seminary wasn’t that much more than HS and much less than college so I guess it’s a different set of circumstances. I loved my year abroad as did everyone I know who went.
What bothers me about fox’s story every time, is that of course it’s something for girls that has to be cut.
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mommy3b2c
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Tue, Nov 13 2018, 1:55 pm
amother wrote: | If your hashkafa is that a man should support his family, but your daughter is going to go to a Bais Yaakov seminary -- you will probably have hashkafic objections to the view that men should learn forever. |
This. My parents didn’t really believe in seminary either. The whole idea that I man should learn long term was not something I ever even considered.
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PinkFridge
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Tue, Nov 13 2018, 7:01 pm
dancingqueen wrote: | I’m more familiar with MO seminaries but I know there are some RW MO seminaries, like michlala and darchei bina that have some yeshivish girls. I didn’t go to those but could find out more if you want.
Coming from an MO background seminary wasn’t that much more than HS and much less than college so I guess it’s a different set of circumstances. I loved my year abroad as did everyone I know who went.
What bothers me about fox’s story every time, is that of course it’s something for girls that has to be cut. |
Re your last line, I was thinking something like that too. OTOH if something is unsustainable...let me just say that not everyone supports in kollel either, and it's not a matter of hashkafa as much as reality.
I will say that I'm still an advocate of serious post-high school learning. As our principal said 35+ years ago, if a girl's going to go on to more sophisticated secular learning, she should go on to more sophisticated Torah learning.
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amother
Jade
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Wed, Nov 14 2018, 12:17 am
Hi just wanted to add in my own personal experience. I’ve always been very on my own . I had to parent my parents. (With lots of help from sibs and teachers). I knew I had to get away for seminary bc home was unlivable. I davened and hoped everything would turn out ok. I left to israel. Hashem pulled strings and one way or another I got a full scholarship. If it’s the right thing, Hashem will make it happen.
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shabbatiscoming
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Wed, Nov 14 2018, 4:02 am
I just finished reading the entire thread and I am finding it so sad that the shidduch system had to, yet again, add more and more things that are "required" for a good shidduch.
I went to sem 20 years ago. I grew up MO. There was no seminary night in my high school (some rabbanim from some sems came to talk to the students, that was it) and sem was not a requirement for anyone. Some girls from my grade went and others didnt. It was the girl's decision, based on things they themselves wanted to make (and obviously parents input, but not their decision)
But again, why do shidduchim have to keep on adding more and more things to make the pool of prospective people, smaller and smaller. Its really awful.
For myself the sem year changed my life. But there was absolutely no kool aid in my sem. I went to a dati leumi sem. It changed my life in that after I returned back to the states, I realized that I wanted to make aliyah. I also learned a lot, out of the class room, during that year. I grew up in a way that I would not have if I had gone straight to uni.
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PinkFridge
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Wed, Nov 14 2018, 9:33 am
shabbatiscoming wrote: | I just finished reading the entire thread and I am finding it so sad that the shidduch system had to, yet again, add more and more things that are "required" for a good shidduch.
I went to sem 20 years ago. I grew up MO. There was no seminary night in my high school (some rabbanim from some sems came to talk to the students, that was it) and sem was not a requirement for anyone. Some girls from my grade went and others didnt. It was the girl's decision, based on things they themselves wanted to make (and obviously parents input, but not their decision)
But again, why do shidduchim have to keep on adding more and more things to make the pool of prospective people, smaller and smaller. Its really awful.
For myself the sem year changed my life. But there was absolutely no kool aid in my sem. I went to a dati leumi sem. It changed my life in that after I returned back to the states, I realized that I wanted to make aliyah. I also learned a lot, out of the class room, during that year. I grew up in a way that I would not have if I had gone straight to uni. |
Did we grow up in simpler times?
There was no kool aid in my time. Definitely not in high school. And this was typical for seminary: A teacher who posed this question to our class: "It's the end of a long day. Your husband, who might have come from work or from two sedarim is now going out to learn at night. Why are you facilitating this?" After hearing umpteen girls talk about how it's our zechus, and a vicarious experience and who knows what, he banged his hand on the desk and said, "No more frum talk. The answer is, because it makes him happy."
The point is, the indoctrination was, do what you can to enable your husband to get some quality learning in on a daily basis because it will give him chiyus. IOW, being kovaih itim l'Torah. This was how RW seminaries presented it.
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Chayalle
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Wed, Nov 14 2018, 10:16 am
PinkFridge wrote: | Did we grow up in simpler times?
There was no kool aid in my time. Definitely not in high school. And this was typical for seminary: A teacher who posed this question to our class: "It's the end of a long day. Your husband, who might have come from work or from two sedarim is now going out to learn at night. Why are you facilitating this?" After hearing umpteen girls talk about how it's our zechus, and a vicarious experience and who knows what, he banged his hand on the desk and said, "No more frum talk. The answer is, because it makes him happy."
The point is, the indoctrination was, do what you can to enable your husband to get some quality learning in on a daily basis because it will give him chiyus. IOW, being kovaih itim l'Torah. This was how RW seminaries presented it. |
I love this.
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Mommyg8
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Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:09 am
dancingqueen wrote: | I’m more familiar with MO seminaries but I know there are some RW MO seminaries, like michlala and darchei bina that have some yeshivish girls. I didn’t go to those but could find out more if you want.
Coming from an MO background seminary wasn’t that much more than HS and much less than college so I guess it’s a different set of circumstances. I loved my year abroad as did everyone I know who went.
What bothers me about fox’s story every time, is that of course it’s something for girls that has to be cut. |
I'm generally really quick to jump on that bandwagon (especially as I'm paying a boatload of money for my boys) but this time I do have to grudgingly secede that if you're going to cut somewhere, it should be the girls hebrew education rather than the boys.
Boys can become Rabbis, Rosh Yeshivos, and even if not, there is much more of an emphasis of a lifetime of learning (even if a man is working), so it does make sense to spend more on that foundation. Or to emphasize it more.
Also, at least in the RW world, you can't compare the seminary experience to the yeshivah experience.
Seminary - comfortable beds, American food, tiyulim.
Yeshivah - moldy rooms, Israeli food, 12 hour learning days (if not more).
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Ruchel
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Wed, Nov 14 2018, 11:32 am
you also have ppl opposing sending girls away (nak sorry no caps)
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naturalmom5
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Wed, Nov 14 2018, 3:56 pm
Mommyg8 wrote: | I'm generally really quick to jump on that bandwagon (especially as I'm paying a boatload of money for my boys) but this time I do have to grudgingly secede that if you're going to cut somewhere, it should be the girls hebrew education rather than the boys.
Boys can become Rabbis, Rosh Yeshivos, and even if not, there is much more of an emphasis of a lifetime of learning (even if a man is working), so it does make sense to spend more on that foundation. Or to emphasize it more.
Also, at least in the RW world, you can't compare the seminary experience to the yeshivah experience.
Seminary - comfortable beds, American food, tiyulim.
Yeshivah - moldy rooms, Israeli food, 12 hour learning days (if not more). |
MG8... Once again, I see we live on different planets with alternate realities.
My husband learned in Brisk in the early 80s. My son currently lives in Har Nof..
Moldy rooms, not the lavish apartments all his friends live in. Israeli food, 12 hour learning days ??? I guess I need to fly over and get my son to a neurologist asap and tell him he is suffering from hallucinations. He sees tons of yeshiva bochurim in Pizza shops, bakeries, and eateries all the time ...
Moving on to the girls. Lincoln's emancipation proclamation apparently doesn't apply to Lakewood. AS soon as the girls return from seminary they are basically indentured servants for the next 50 years . There is very very little learning available for women. Of course, you have to pay for everything. Most of the time its all fluff designed for women with very low IQs.
For the men, there is breakfast and learn, lunch and learn, milk and cookies and learn, ski and learn, bird-watching and learn, stretch your legs and learn... All free or sponsored..
Now you want to deprive the girl of their one measly year. And even during that year, often you need to be someone's free cleaning lady in the name of chesed..
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shabbatiscoming
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Thu, Nov 15 2018, 2:19 am
Mommyg8 wrote: | I'm generally really quick to jump on that bandwagon (especially as I'm paying a boatload of money for my boys) but this time I do have to grudgingly secede that if you're going to cut somewhere, it should be the girls hebrew education rather than the boys.
Boys can become Rabbis, Rosh Yeshivos, and even if not, there is much more of an emphasis of a lifetime of learning (even if a man is working), so it does make sense to spend more on that foundation. Or to emphasize it more.
Also, at least in the RW world, you can't compare the seminary experience to the yeshivah experience.
Seminary - comfortable beds, American food, tiyulim.
Yeshivah - moldy rooms, Israeli food, 12 hour learning days (if not more). | First off, the poster who you replied to said that she went to a more MO seminary, so Im not really understanding what your reply has anything to do with anything.
Second of all, why would a girl's judaic education be any less important than a boys? Im sorry, but we are not living before the 1800s. We live in the 21st century and while I understand that some sects dont want their daughters going to uni and getting MAs and PhDs, why deprive them of a jewish education?
NO, a boys education is NOT more important than a girls. Please, we are not living in a shtetl where a girl might live a long life but mostly be at home. That just not how the world works now.
I also have no idea what you are talking about in terms of the living conditions, but whatever you say (that is not what I know about yeshivas at least)
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shabbatiscoming
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Thu, Nov 15 2018, 3:12 am
PinkFridge wrote: | Did we grow up in simpler times?
There was no kool aid in my time. Definitely not in high school. And this was typical for seminary: A teacher who posed this question to our class: "It's the end of a long day. Your husband, who might have come from work or from two sedarim is now going out to learn at night. Why are you facilitating this?" After hearing umpteen girls talk about how it's our zechus, and a vicarious experience and who knows what, he banged his hand on the desk and said, "No more frum talk. The answer is, because it makes him happy."
The point is, the indoctrination was, do what you can to enable your husband to get some quality learning in on a daily basis because it will give him chiyus. IOW, being kovaih itim l'Torah. This was how RW seminaries presented it. | I went to sem 20 years ago.
Also, my sem was no right wing anything. It was a dati leumi sem. So none of the teachers were wives of kollel men and the male teachers were all university graduates, some rabbanim and others not. It was not a thing in my sem. Its not a thing in my world.
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PinkFridge
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Thu, Nov 15 2018, 9:53 am
shabbatiscoming wrote: | I went to sem 20 years ago.
Also, my sem was no right wing anything. It was a dati leumi sem. So none of the teachers were wives of kollel men and the male teachers were all university graduates, some rabbanim and others not. It was not a thing in my sem. Its not a thing in my world. |
Yeah, I knew it wasn't a RW sem. But things definitely were different then.
Oh, and maybe I should also post this in the how do you pay for sem thread: About two years ago I saw an article in the NCYI magazine (or maybe it was something smaller) about grants for more MO type mosdos. Definitely worth looking into.
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Raisin
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Thu, Nov 15 2018, 11:45 am
Mommyg8 wrote: | I'm generally really quick to jump on that bandwagon (especially as I'm paying a boatload of money for my boys) but this time I do have to grudgingly secede that if you're going to cut somewhere, it should be the girls hebrew education rather than the boys.
Boys can become Rabbis, Rosh Yeshivos, and even if not, there is much more of an emphasis of a lifetime of learning (even if a man is working), so it does make sense to spend more on that foundation. Or to emphasize it more.
Also, at least in the RW world, you can't compare the seminary experience to the yeshivah experience.
Seminary - comfortable beds, American food, tiyulim.
Yeshivah - moldy rooms, Israeli food, 12 hour learning days (if not more). |
Who exactly should become rebbetzins, kiruv workers, teachers, and so on?
Educating women in torah is an extremely positive thing.
My daughter is in seminary in an out of the way part of Israel. Dorms are not luxurious at all. I don't know how comfortable the beds are but she is not spending all that much time sleeping. (What are you doing up at midnight? Oh, I was learning with some friends)
Food is israeli food. (I've been to a meal, I know what is served)
Her particular seminary aspires to make shluchos out of all of them, so yes, if they want to do that they do need to learn.
I don't agree that seminary owners should be making large profits or that seminaries need to be in Israel. (although running a seminary outside of Israel is not necessarily cheaper and you don't get masa grants) Ironically we got no discount from my daughters seminary even though we are shluchim, but the price is definitely on the lower end of prices quoted here.
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PinkFridge
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Thu, Nov 15 2018, 11:50 am
Raisin wrote: | Who exactly should become rebbetzins, kiruv workers, teachers, and so on?
Educating women in torah is an extremely positive thing.
My daughter is in seminary in an out of the way part of Israel. Dorms are not luxurious at all. I don't know how comfortable the beds are but she is not spending all that much time sleeping. (What are you doing up at midnight? Oh, I was learning with some friends)
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Yeah, I used to end our phone calls with, "Repeat after me: Baruch Ata Hashem...Hamapil."
I even did it to a friend who grabbed the phone from dd who wanted to tell me what a wonderful friend, roommate, etc., she was
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